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DBS,
I think its safe to say you can't asimilate some one with an energy field between you!
As for the plasma, like I said I'm no physics expert so maybe it could have. But if thats the case would the plasma not be absorbed by the energy shield?

(although they seem to be able to operate in a vacuum, but that may not be the shield)

Perhaps borg don't need to breathe? (If they do have a KE shield this would make sense as otherwise they'd suffocate.)

That is true about the observed KE shields being found within a Cube (kind of like the containment shields in the Enterprise corridors) I forgot about that.

The best evidence for the Borg having personal KE shields is severalfold, though.

1.) The Borg may well have encountered projectile weapons in the past, and thus may already have adaptations to them. (speculative, I know, but bear with me)

2.) The Federation has the amazing TR-116, a projectile weapon.

3.) These weapons can be replicated, and people with knowledge of the weapon have in fact fought against the Borg. (Worf)

Given the assumption that Starfleet is not stupid, and that when they are desperate to find any way to stop the Borg (including hand-to-hand), someone would have suggested trying them. The only explanation I can give without violating my assumption is that for some reason projectile weapons do not work well against the Borg, at least no better than energy weapons or fists. Moreover, after Picard had his tommy-gun success, why did he not attempt to replicate them for the crew if they would work in the future?

Yeah, Borg may not need to breathe beyond being able to speak. Their implants might keep them alive for a time in space. So that is not necessarily a KE shield.

What I've noticed is that Borg shields seem to be very dodgy! They can absorb many phaser rifle hits (at least enough that Starfleeters know better than to try to overpower them), yet a relatively low energy plasma discharge can kill them. Apparently KE weapons don't work (or I'd have to believe they would have been tried, I don't think Starfleet is stupid), but sometimes knives can!

OI

DBS wrote:The best evidence for the Borg having personal KE shields is severalfold, though.

1.) The Borg may well have encountered projectile weapons in the past, and thus may already have adaptations to them. (speculative, I know, but bear with me)

2.) The Federation has the amazing TR-116, a projectile weapon.

3.) These weapons can be replicated, and people with knowledge of the weapon have in fact fought against the Borg. (Worf)

Given the assumption that Starfleet is not stupid, and that when they are desperate to find any way to stop the Borg (including hand-to-hand), someone would have suggested trying them. The only explanation I can give without violating my assumption is that for some reason projectile weapons do not work well against the Borg, at least no better than energy weapons or fists. Moreover, after Picard had his tommy-gun success, why did he not attempt to replicate them for the crew if they would work in the future?

Your attitude seems to boil down to one of "the Borg must have fought against projectile weapons at some point, and they're still around" and "the Federation can't be that stupid". I can sympathise with both, but unfortunately the on-screen evidence does not indicate Borg drones possesing kinetic shields.

The first point can be countered with typical Borg tactics - amble slowly toward the enemy and rely on weight of numbers to win the day. If you think no-one would ever be that stupid to rely on such tactics, consider the 1st July 1916.

On the second, Federation ground equipment is notoriously poor - they have no artillery, no armour, no machine-guns or equivalent, no body armour (not even helmets!). Their only projectile weapon fits the profile of an assasination weapon more than an assault rifle. their tactics are so poor that the Jem'hadar (the run-at-the-enemy-screaming-brigade) are a threat to them. Unfortunately the theory that the Federation is indeed that stupid seems to be borne out.

Given the assumption that Starfleet is not stupid

Pretty big assumption!

Snip

You have a good point there, IMO this just further points to a Dune-like shield that blocks high velocity KE impacts, but not low velocity impacts.
Also the Federation isn't exactly Einstein when it comes to tactics or equipping their troops.

OI

Tell me about it! A little consistency wouldn't be too much to ask for would it?

Captain Seafort wrote:If you think no-one would ever be that stupid to rely on such tactics, consider the 1st July 1916.

Good point.

But does the Federation actually need this stuff? You yourself are working under the assumption that projectile (or even automatic) weapons are superior to what Starfleet uses. The TR-116 was intended to fill in for phasers in situations where they could be dampened. This problem seems to have been corrected, so the design was dropped.

We have seen a photon grenade mortar in TOS, as have we heard about "hoppers" which move personnel from one battlefield location to another. Is a tank really necessary when a hand phaser can supposedly level a building?

Captain Seafort wrote: On the second, Federation ground equipment is notoriously poor - they have no artillery, no armour, no machine-guns or equivalent, no body armour (not even helmets!).

But no one they encounter has what you would consider a well equipped ground force, either. I don't know if that speaks well or poorly of Trek, but it makes no sense that NO ONE seems to have one if it is so important!

The TR-116 was intended to fill in for phasers in situations where they could be dampened.

Was it not built as a sniper weapon?

as have we heard about "hoppers" which move personnel from one battlefield location to another.

We've also heard that ground troops need to provide covering fire for them!

And the fact that no one else has a competent ground force should be more reason to use combined arms tactics.

Rochey wrote:

The TR-116 was intended to fill in for phasers in situations where they could be dampened.

Was it not built as a sniper weapon?

as have we heard about "hoppers" which move personnel from one battlefield location to another.

We've also heard that ground troops need to provide covering fire for them!

And the fact that no one else has a competent ground force should be more reason to use combined arms tactics.

I think the scope and transporter were added on by the murderer.

Like I have been surmising, I think that there must be a good reason for no one to do this, as well as why what we TODAY consider to be effective ground forces do not seem to show up in Trek. I'm not saying it wouldn't be neat, I just think that it is silly to call characters stupid just because they don't react like we would.

I think the scope and transporter were added on by the murderer.

Ok, thanks. I hadn't seen that episode in a while.

Like I have been surmising, I think that there must be a good reason for no one to do this

Perhaps the transporter would be to vulnerable to jamming?

I just think that it is silly to call characters stupid just because they don't react like we would.

I call them silly when they don't crank up the power on their phasers and just blow through whatever cover their enemy is using!

DBS wrote:But does the Federation actually need this stuff? You yourself are working under the assumption that projectile (or even automatic) weapons are superior to what Starfleet uses. The TR-116 was intended to fill in for phasers in situations where they could be dampened. This problem seems to have been corrected, so the design was dropped.

We have seen a photon grenade mortar in TOS, as have we heard about "hoppers" which move personnel from one battlefield location to another. Is a tank really necessary when a hand phaser can supposedly level a building?

I don't necessarilly mean KE weapons - aside from the fact that we haven't seen anything other than (badly designed) handguns, SMG-equivalents and rifle-equivalents in TNG, DS9 or Voyager, a phaser with big cooling fins and a big powerpack/generator would be an improvement on the stuff they use.

Something like Worf's phaser-bazooka from Insurrection or the cannon off the back of the buggy in Nemesis should be standard issue for the company-sized force we saw at AR-558, along with mortars for indirect-fire, but they wern't there. The hoppers are clearly more akin to Hueys than helcopter-gunships or true close-support aircraft like the A-10 or Harrier, as the one mention in Nor the Battle to the Strong required a man to stay behind to give covering fire to allow it to get away, demonstrating that they don't have effective armour or armament.

No matter how much damage a weapon can do (and the claim from Riker about levelling half a building is dubious given his mental state at the time) a bigger weapon can do more damage, period.

Well, sometimes (when they have Data to remind them that they can, you know, damage things with their phasers other than the Bad Guys...)

What was that in response to?

(and the claim from Riker about levelling half a building is dubious given his mental state at the time)

What was his mental state?

a phaser with big cooling fins and a big powerpack/generator would be an improvement on the stuff they use.

Hell, a phaser that dosen't break when you hit someone with it wold be an improvement!

Rochey wrote:

(and the claim from Riker about levelling half a building is dubious given his mental state at the time)

What was his mental state?

It was in Frame of Mind - he'd been captured on some planet, and was being interrogated with some pretty strong drugs, so his mind was hopping about all over the place to try and resist this. Bottom line is that at the time he claimed a phaser could destroy half a building he was unconcious, appearing to be in a mental institution he had never been outside, and so could not know the size of. On top of this he had appeared in the build (with phaser) from a similarly imaginary Enterprise, having shot himself with said phaser. The possibility that he was plain bonkers cannot be ruled out.

DBS wrote:

Well, sometimes (when they have Data to remind them that they can, you know, damage things with their phasers other than the Bad Guys...)

In the TNG episode "The Vengeance Factor" when they are fighting the Gatherers.

General speculation is that Riker would know what his weapon was capable of, but he was a little crazy. But I don't imagine it would be too much of an exaggeration, given that level 10 kills most things, and there are six more power levels to explore!

Hell, a phaser that dosen't break when you hit someone with it wold be an improvement!