Leviathan Class

Post by **Mikey** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:10 pm

I have to agree with Seafort on this - as far as I can recall, the only stipulation placed on the Romulans by the Treaty of Alferon was to abide by the limits of the Neutral Zone - which stipulation was also enforced against the Federation.

As far as WMD's, I think you're referring to the ban on isolytic subspace weapons imposed by the Khitomer Accords.

Azrael · Post by **Azrael** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:35 pm

i think the war turned out more in a draw..

because the only other stipulation for the feds other then not crossing in to the neutral zone, was no cloaking,

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:44 pm

Azrael wrote:i think the war turned out more in a draw..

because the only other stipulation for the feds other then not crossing in to the neutral zone, was no cloaking,

Nonetheless, the Feds signed an asymetrical arms-control treaty. A treaty regarding a piece of technology that gave the user an immesurable strategic and operational advantage. The only conceiveable reason any state would sign such a treaty would be if they were utterly incapable of resisting any further attack by the power imposing the treaty.

Azrael · Post by **Azrael** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:46 pm

I'm not sure if I agree with that, in a stalemate; both sides just want it to end.

I think it's been stated somewhere that the federation found a way to detect a romulan cloak, and had evened the odds as that was the only big advantage the romulans had.

the federation is notorious for just wanting peace. I assume they were eager to sign the treaty, as they figured if they could see through the cloak, so might other races.. why bother?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Algeron

editted to add:

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Earth-Romulan_War

a much better amount of information about it, it also refers to canon sources; it says that the federation scored a devastating victory against the romulans at the battle of Cheron.

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:16 pm

Your mention of the Fed victory at the Battle of Cheron refers to the end of the Earth-Romulan War of the late 2150s. The Treaty of Alergon was signed after the Tomed Incident of 2311.

If there was a stalemate and both sides wished to end the war, then a symmetrical treaty would have been signed, with neither advantage nor disadvantage to eitheside. The fact that the treaty benefitted the Romulans by banning Federation development of cloaking technology shows that the Romulans must have held a distinct advantage. The argument that the Federation could see through the latest Romulan cloaks holds no water - they could do that in "Balance of Terror", but later models corrected that flaw, leading to the incursion of "The Enterprise Incident" to obtain an example of the latest Romulan technology. It's the way of war - first one technology gains an advantage, then a countermeasure is developed, then a counter-countermeasure.

Azrael · Post by **Azrael** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:29 pm

In 2311, the Tomed Incident between the Federation and the Romulan Star Empire led to numerous casualties on both sides and marked the beginning of the Romulan isolation over the following 53 years. (TNG: "The Neutral Zone")

Again, still looks like a draw or stalemate to me.

The Tomed Incident was a terrible confrontation between the United Federation of Planets and the Romulan Star Empire in 2311 that cost thousands of lives. The incident led to the signing of the Treaty of Algeron, which banned Federation research into or use of any cloaking device, and led to the withdrawal of the Romulan government from interstellar affairs until 2364. (TNG: "The Neutral Zone", "The Pegasus")

The Treaty of Algeron was a peace treaty signed between the United Federation of Planets and the Romulan Star Empire in 2311 on the planet Algeron IV, following the events of the Tomed Incident. The Treaty of Algeron was signed approximately 160 years after the conclusion of the Earth-Romulan War. (TNG: "The Pegasus")

It seems it was a concession to get the romulans to go away.

as it seems earth won the war, with the victory at cheron. and the event at tomad, seemed to inflict losses on both sides and a treaty was signed.

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:32 pm

You seem to keep looking over a big part of the war. Starfleet was able to combat the cloaking tech of the Rom's. Also if the Rom's had been winning then they wouldn't have stopped the war, they would have kept going. The WMD ban was on nukes, because at that time those were still a threat. The feds did get the butt end of the deal, true enough. But you have this thought about them somehow losing when the cannon shows us otherwise. The Romulans went into hiding after each war they had with the feds. That big advantage that you talk about really by the end of the war wasn't so big anymore. And it would seem that Starfleet often had superior numbers on top of that. The Romulans in order to end the war gave up their gains (most of which were non-fed) and thus the Neutral zone was born. The feds promised they wouldn't use cloaking tech, which they weren't' doing anyways. Its not much to give up something that you're not using. There was no longer a ace for either side, it turned into a war of attrition which neither side wanted. Peace was best for both sides.

Azrael · Post by **Azrael** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:57 pm

deepcrush are you talking to me? or seafort? lol

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:15 pm

In general, i didn't feel the need for finger pointing at anyone. It seemed a valid point that was skipped over.

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:48 pm

Deep, you're making stuff up now - bans on nuclear weapons have never been mentioned in Trek, nor have the precise circumstances of the Tomed Incident been revealed, save that thousands of lives were lost. As for a rationalisation of why the Romulans didn't wipe out the Federation, I would hypothesise that the Federation had suffered a severe defeat and was falling back towards its core systems. In such a situation a Romulan offensive would have been sucessful, but at a heavy cost in lives as the Feds fought to the last man to defend Earth, Vulcan, Andoria and Tellar. Rather than go through this the Treaty of Algeron was signed, banning Fed use of cloaking technology, among other unmentioned clauses.

You again seem to be conflating the Earth-Romulan War of the 2150s and the Tomed Incident of 2311. The former was an Earth victory, and led to the establishment of the Neutral Zone, and shortly thereafter the founding of the Federation from the wartime alliance of Earth, Vulcan, Tellar and Andoria. The latter was the last appearence of the Romulans accross the Zone prior to TNG, and judging by the terms of the Treaty of Algeron, a Federation defeat, possibly in circumstances similar to my hypothesis above.

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:28 pm

Im afraid we will have to disagree on the matter then, but such is life.

Where is rochey? He would normally be all over this!

Post by **Mikey** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:45 pm

I think he's in the middle of a PC meltdown. He'll probably burn out another one just trying to make up for lost time!

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:22 pm

It doesn't fell right not having him here in the fight.

I'm good with war and tactics but fail in arguing their points and uses.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:02 pm

*Bursts through door*

You're all wrong!

I've been staying on the sidelines due to my computer problems (seriously, what are the chances of two computers failing at the same time?) and the fact that Seafort is pretty much bringing up the same points as myself.

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:08 pm

Rochey wrote:*Bursts through door*

You're all wrong!

I've been staying on the sidelines due to my computer problems (seriously, what are the chances of two computers failing at the same time?) and the fact that Seafort is pretty much bringing up the same points as myself.

*Punches Rochey in the nuts!*
HAH! He's back!
I'M OUT!
*Runs out the door slamming closed behind him!*