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One thing to clarify here is that if you looked at whether Americans believe in things like mutations, that if you wipe out all the white moths you'll be left with brown moths, or that domesticated horses have been changing since ancient history I don't think you'd have to many opposing that.

However, as is more or less being demonstrated here, what is typically meant in the US by THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION, is that Atheism is the one true religion, all praise the prophet Darwin.

And that is what many people have a problem with.

And it really gets to the level of dogma with the crap thrown at some things like Intelligent Design and such, which basically says that everything proceeds as science predicts, but there was a force behind it, perhaps causing some random amino acids to flip periodically to guide things. So it has the same predictions etc, you can pull out the Razor all you like, while an occasionally useful rule of thumb you don't have people from the different branches of quantum mechanics going after each other with it. And certainly it's often wrong. And frankly it only favors lightning in bacteria because your basic premis is "given that there is nothing supernatural, Occams razor says there isn't anything supernatural". There are massivly unlikely odds in evolution, which are usually waved off by saying "well, we're here aren't we?"

And in any case for any form of practical science it doesn't matter if dinosaur bones were but there by god or the devil, were killed off in the biblical flood, were intelligently designed, or just happened through chance. I really wish a lot of people would back off the issue so the country could move forward better in the areas of science and engineering we need to.

I also wish the "issue" would go away. Then maybe science teachers could get back to teaching observable science instead of pure speculation.

Maybe God is guiding the process. Maybe Toucan Sam is guiding the process. Either way, there's no evidence whatsoever to support either of those claims.

You know, I don't think anyone would give two figs about intelligent design or straight out Abiogenesis and evolution if the religious right in the US wasn't blatantly trying to use it as an issue to get the Christian god back into schools. It's sort of an incremental step, get the foot in the door and because you've got the folks to cave once it's easier to get the next religious issue in.

Look at Texas.

sunnyside wrote:One thing to clarify here is that if you looked at whether Americans believe in things like mutations, that if you wipe out all the white moths you'll be left with brown moths, or that domesticated horses have been changing since ancient history I don't think you'd have to many opposing that.

However, as is more or less being demonstrated here, what is typically meant in the US by THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION, is that Atheism is the one true religion, all praise the prophet Darwin.

And that is what many people have a problem with.

And it really gets to the level of dogma with the crap thrown at some things like Intelligent Design and such, which basically says that everything proceeds as science predicts, but there was a force behind it, perhaps causing some random amino acids to flip periodically to guide things. So it has the same predictions etc, you can pull out the Razor all you like, while an occasionally useful rule of thumb you don't have people from the different branches of quantum mechanics going after each other with it. And certainly it's often wrong. And frankly it only favors lightning in bacteria because your basic premis is "given that there is nothing supernatural, Occams razor says there isn't anything supernatural". There are massivly unlikely odds in evolution, which are usually waved off by saying "well, we're here aren't we?"

And in any case for any form of practical science it doesn't matter if dinosaur bones were but there by god or the devil, were killed off in the biblical flood, were intelligently designed, or just happened through chance. I really wish a lot of people would back off the issue so the country could move forward better in the areas of science and engineering we need to.

Regardless of the specific merits of Evolutionary theory, the very fact that religious dogma is being taught as science is dangerous to our understanding of the scientific process itself. If there is any one thing a young student should take from science education, it is not the classification of earthly minerals or how to balance a chemical equation, it is the process of science and the associated mindset.

Cpl Kendall wrote:...Look at Texas.

What about us? It's a lot of midwestern states that have been trying to teach "intelligent design" in public schools. We were a blue (democratic) state until the '90s. We're leaning back that way at the moment, if the results of the last election are anything to go by.

I haven't checked, but I don't recall hearing anything about us trying to use that BS pseudo-science in our classrooms.

I won't say that there aren't some who would like to see God in public schools.

However I think for the large majority of believers they just don't want their kids being told that Atheism is the only answer in the classroom. Intelligent design is only rearing its head because not teaching THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION isn't an option, so they're trying to cram something else in to counter.

But I bet if they had the choice between both or just having the kids actaully learn something that might matter they'd take that option. Really, even if we were all Atheists I'd rather they spent their time on something more useful anyway.

It's supposed to take effect this year:

Linky Poo

Oh sorry this is specifically the bible, there has been a long running effort to specifically get ID taught though, with various challenges at the board of education for the state. IIRC that was the reason for the switch from "creationism" to "intelligent design", they re-badged the idea with a different, more "sciencey" name.

I won't say that there aren't some who would like to see God in public schools.

However I think for the large majority of believers they just don't want their kids being told that Atheism is the only answer in the classroom. Intelligent design is only rearing its head because not teaching THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION isn't an option, so they're trying to cram something else in to counter.

But I bet if they had the choice between both or just having the kids actaully learn something that might matter they'd take that option. Really, even if we were all Atheists I'd rather they spent their time on something more useful anyway.

What in the bowels of christ does any of this have to do with evolution? Atheism is no more a religious belief then a potato is an apple growing under ground, the point of science education isn't to shoot down god, it's to instill logical thinking. Without it, your nation will descend into a monkey run dirt hole rather quickly.

Edit: Actually the fact that most Americans can't tell that Atheism isn't a religious belief is probably a good indicator that teaching of logical thinking either stopped a while back or isn't being pushed enough.

sunnyside wrote:I won't say that there aren't some who would like to see God in public schools.

However I think for the large majority of believers they just don't want their kids being told that Atheism is the only answer in the classroom. Intelligent design is only rearing its head because not teaching THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION isn't an option, so they're trying to cram something else in to counter.

But I bet if they had the choice between both or just having the kids actaully learn something that might matter they'd take that option. Really, even if we were all Atheists I'd rather they spent their time on something more useful anyway.

See, I just don't understand why religion and science have to be at odds at all.

That said, there is a SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE, and the theory of evolution has no religious affiliation; it's just science. So, it should be taught in PUBLIC SCHOOLS, and any religious "theories" cannot. It's unconstitutional.

Tsukiyumi wrote:See, I just don't understand why religion and science have to be at odds at all.

I've heard of many religious scientists.

That said, there is a SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE, and the theory of evolution has no religious affiliation; it's just science. So, it should be taught in PUBLIC SCHOOLS, and any religious "theories" cannot. It's unconstitutional.

Moreover, the teaching of religion (Man's search for higher meaning) in a science (Man's search for objective knowledge) classroom can only be meant to confound understanding of the latter. In fact, if there is to be a discussion of religion in schools (which does not favor any one religion or viewpoint, and thus should not violate constitutional guidelines) it should be to elucidate this very point: religion and science are the pursuit of two different facets of Man's overarching desire to grow. The fostering of a healthy understanding of the relationship of faith and science is what is warranted, but what we are seeing is a war on values instead.

Captain Picard's Hair wrote:
Moreover, the teaching of religion (Man's search for higher meaning) in a science (Man's search for objective knowledge) classroom can only be meant to confound understanding of the latter. In fact, if there is to be a discussion of religion in schools (which does not favor any one religion or viewpoint, and thus should not violate constitutional guidelines) it should be to elucidate this very point: religion and science are the pursuit of two different facets of Man's overarching desire to grow. The fostering of a healthy understanding of the relationship of faith and science is what is warranted, but what we are seeing is a war on values instead.

There is a class for this already, it's called philosophy or theology.

Cpl Kendall wrote:

Captain Picard's Hair wrote:
Moreover, the teaching of religion (Man's search for higher meaning) in a science (Man's search for objective knowledge) classroom can only be meant to confound understanding of the latter. In fact, if there is to be a discussion of religion in schools (which does not favor any one religion or viewpoint, and thus should not violate constitutional guidelines) it should be to elucidate this very point: religion and science are the pursuit of two different facets of Man's overarching desire to grow. The fostering of a healthy understanding of the relationship of faith and science is what is warranted, but what we are seeing is a war on values instead.

There is a class for this already, it's called philosophy or theology.

Well, of course. Problem is, such courses aren't taught in grade school 'round these parts while God-mongers are screwing with the understanding of young students before they get to the level where such courses are found...

Just take some time out in these young years to talk about this distinction truly fairly (not like the Creationists twisted vision of "fair treatment") on a more basic level and we'd be better off for it.

Captain Picard's Hair wrote:I've heard of many religious scientists.

Darwin is a good example. Einstein. Galileo. Newton.

Captain Picard's Hair wrote:religion and science are the pursuit of two different facets of Man's overarching desire to grow.

Very well said.

Captain Picard's Hair wrote:The fostering of a healthy understanding of the relationship of faith and science is what is warranted, but what we are seeing is a war on values instead.

Which is a terrible state of affairs. Catholics have made great contributions to science, such as Martin Nowak. A shame more people can't separate the dogma of religion from scientific facts.

Captain Picard's Hair wrote:
Well, of course. Problem is, such courses aren't taught in grade school 'round these parts while God-mongers are screwing with the understanding of young students before they get to the level where such courses are found...

Just take some time out in these young years to talk about this distinction truly fairly (not like the Creationists twisted vision of "fair treatment") on a more basic level and we'd be better off for it.

Turns out that when you construct a religion that holds conversion important (your immortal soul is in dangerous peril!) that you mind up with this sort of thing. Because clearly non-believers are just blind to the facts and if we slip Gawd! in enough that they'll come around.

I personally like the way it was done at our school. When we went into the Evolution Unit, it was explained that this was sciences explanation for the way live has come to be and grown throughout the history of the earth, if you don't believe it fine, but you can still learn it so you know what it is your up against. They also pointed out that they don't teach religious values because as a public school they would have to teach all creationism theories, from christianity, Judism, Islam, Buddhism, Hindu, ect. and they don't have that kind of time, if you want a creationist theory go to your church they teach it all the time.

That said, they also allowed students out of the unit if they and their parents didn't want it taught to them. They got put through some other unit of work, so it wasn't like they were allowed to slack off at all. I don't know anyone that took that option so I'm not exactly sure what they do.

I prefer our method: "This is what happens. Here's why it happens. Here's how we know it happens."
No mention at all of creationism, ID, or any other crazy "alternatives".