Ways that Earthforce could have at least forced a Stalemate.

[Monroe]

Of course the EA can't win, that's not the point. The point is to take as many of the Boneheads with you as you can. Spamming their space with nuke armed drones won't win the war or even stalemate it but it might just burn millions of the fuckers.

Exactly. It would still be a very small chance of success but spamming them with nuclear drones (or mass drivers) plus the targeting solution might not win the war. But it would take many of them with the EA and hell maybe it would extend the war long enough for a better solution to come.

[Deepcrush]

Of course the EA can't win, that's not the point. The point is to take as many of the Boneheads with you as you can. Spamming their space with nuke armed drones won't win the war or even stalemate it but it might just burn millions of the fuckers.

I would much rather have those nukes blasting their ships as they come after earth. At least then you know where they are. This drone, mass driver, invasion bullshit is just fucking stupid. Focus on what can be done.

[Monroe]

Of course the EA can't win, that's not the point. The point is to take as many of the Boneheads with you as you can. Spamming their space with nuke armed drones won't win the war or even stalemate it but it might just burn millions of the fuckers.

I would much rather have those nukes blasting their ships as they come after earth. At least then you know where they are. This drone, mass driver, invasion bullshit is just f***ing stupid. Focus on what can be done.

Why can't you do both? You can't win a war by staying defensive only.

[Deepcrush]

Exactly. It would still be a very small chance of success but spamming them with nuclear drones (or mass drivers) plus the targeting solution might not win the war.

So you want to blow all those resources for.... NOTHING, at all, zero gain.

But it would take many of them with the EA and hell maybe it would extend the war long enough for a better solution to come.

Wrong... it would shorten the war. The Minbari wouldn't be targeting just the EF anymore the ALL HUMANS for revenge. That on top of now you're sending all those ships to attack worlds you can't find and even if you did you wouldn't be able to really hurt them through their defenses.

[Deepcrush]

Why can't you do both? You can't win a war by staying defensive only.

A, Earth Force was strained as it was. Cutting the numbers of ships down even more for missions which gain nothing but continue to drain your numbers if fucking retarded.

B, You can't win this war at all. There is zero chance of victory. If you're in a war then you fight for what you can do. Basic Training 4 week should have taught you that. Wasting for nothing gains you nothing.

which brings us too...

C, if you can't win then you have to put the enemy in a position where they feel they might not win. It doesn't have to be true but if they doubt themselves, which the Minbari were doing by the end of the first year. Then you can work out for better conditions. If they rush the line they can break it but they are going to lose ships to the mines and to the suicidal EA ships. Is it worth it or have the MF done enough? Thats what you need them asking. Just like smaller powers have done to the USA in Africa, Iraq, and Vietnam.

[Monroe]

A, Earth Force was strained as it was. Cutting the numbers of ships down even more for missions which gain nothing but continue to drain your numbers if f***ing retarded.

How is destroying the enemy's manufacturing and population centers gaining nothing?

B, You can't win this war at all. There is zero chance of victory. If you're in a war then you fight for what you can do. Basic Training 4 week should have taught you that. Wasting for nothing gains you nothing.

You're already stuck in this war. This plan has a small chance of success which is beyond anything the EA had otherwise. You destroy the Minbari planets target their ships and win a few battles even then suddenly you have a chance. Maybe a fool's chance but its a chance. And this is a war the EA is in already.

If you're going to face a superior enemy you can't win by laying there and taking it. Common sense should have taught you that.

C, if you can't win then you have to put the enemy in a position where they feel they might not win. It doesn't have to be true but if they doubt themselves, which the Minbari were doing by the end of the first year. Then you can work out for better conditions. If they rush the line they can break it but they are going to lose ships to the mines and to the suicidal EA ships. Is it worth it or have the MF done enough? Thats what you need them asking. Just like smaller powers have done to the USA in Africa, Iraq, and Vietnam.

I agree with this statement in principal but tightening the lines or stay the course isn't going to work. You need some strategy for long term success. Destroying the enemy's worlds cuts their logistics and may make them think twice about attacking Earth.

[Deepcrush]

How is destroying the enemy's manufacturing and population centers gaining nothing?

Where are these manufacturing centers? No one knows. Population centers? No one knows. You're not destroying anything if you don't know where to go. Even the Centari (who knew more then most) only knew where the Minbari BORDER was. If you'd paid attention you would have noticed this has already been covered several times.

You're already stuck in this war. This plan has a small chance of success which is beyond anything the EA had otherwise. You destroy the Minbari planets target their ships and win a few battles even then suddenly you have a chance. Maybe a fool's chance but its a chance. And this is a war the EA is in already.

First off, WE KNOW THEY'RE IN THE WAR. Fucking duh. Secondly. The EA won ONE battle in the whole war. Where are these victories of yours coming from??? Have you ever watched the show or are you pulling this out of your ass like your make believe history lessons?

If you're going to face a superior enemy you can't win by laying there and taking it. Common sense should have taught you that.

The inbreeding may have made this hard for you... like everything else in what you call a life. BUT! This isn't a war that can be won. End of story. Stop looking for what isn't there. Look for what can be done, not what you'd like to pretend can be done. When facing a superior enemy that you cannot advance against then you HAVE to stand there and take it. BUT, if you focus your efforts into a massive wall then the enemy has to take the same punishment as you do.

Both the worker caste and religious caste were looking for a way out of the war. If you start attack civis then you lose this. Plus every ship you send on the mission. Next up, if you drain out the warrior caste then you deplete their ability to act without the support of the other castes.

I agree with this statement in principal but tightening the lines or stay the course isn't going to work. You need some strategy for long term success. Destroying the enemy's worlds cuts their logistics and may make them think twice about attacking Earth.

Hey, yeah, its great... minus that the only known Minbari world is their Homeworld. Which even during B5, no one knew where that was, other then inside their border. Anyone who went there went on Minbari transport.

Again, you can't destroy what you can't find. At the time of the war, the most knowledge that anyone had is "Their border is somewhere around here... we think..."

[Monroe]

Where are these manufacturing centers? No one knows. Population centers? No one knows. You're not destroying anything if you don't know where to go. Even the Centari (who knew more then most) only knew where the Minbari BORDER was. If you'd paid attention you would have noticed this has already been covered several times.

I've said before that this plan relies on knowing their boarders. So assuming EA discovers that some how.

Secondly. The EA won ONE battle in the whole war. Where are these victories of yours coming from??? Have you ever watched the show or are you pulling this out of your ass like your make believe history lessons?

I think you misunderstood me there. I was speaking in hypothetical terms. IF EA won some victories THEN the EA would stand a chance. Not WHEN the EA won some victories THEN EA would stand a change. Its okay I know how reading goes for you.

The inbreeding may have made this hard for you... like everything else in what you call a life. BUT! This isn't a war that can be won. End of story. Stop looking for what isn't there. Look for what can be done, not what you'd like to pretend can be done. When facing a superior enemy that you cannot advance against then you HAVE to stand there and take it. BUT, if you focus your efforts into a massive wall then the enemy has to take the same punishment as you do.

I love how you insult but you miss probably the second most basic concept of war. To win or at least force a stalemate which is what the original poster is talking about you have to hit back. Yes you can probably cause some serious carnage doing only defense but is it going to change the outcome? no.

Look at it this way, I know you're familiar with WoW. In the Argent Tournament when you joust a NPC the easiest thing to do is to hit it over and over then when it moves away charge or do your ranged attack then hit again. But that takes forever. The far better approach is to sacrifice a little bit of health and move around and kill it like you're suppose to in order to win quickly. Its similar to that in this make believe war. You have to open yourself up a little bit, a unfortunate side effect of going on the offense, to make some real damage.

Its like in WWI you could sit back on the D all day and take far fewer losses but you had to go on the offense to win.

Yes this whole thing hinges on finding the planets but its a good plan if those planets can be found. Sitting back and making it so more of them die is only going to prolong the conflict and not change the end result.

Both the worker caste and religious caste were looking for a way out of the war. If you start attack civis then you lose this. Plus every ship you send on the mission. Next up, if you drain out the warrior caste then you deplete their ability to act without the support of the other castes.

Very valid points. And I'll concede that that makes sense. But that does rely on knowledge not available to the EA. I suppose if the planets were found they could be infiltrated and this learned. In which case your best bet would be to nuke the training centers instead of populations. But that would be even more unlikely than finding the worlds.

But yeah very valid points.

Hey, yeah, its great... minus that the only known Minbari world is their Homeworld. Which even during B5, no one knew where that was, other then inside their border. Anyone who went there went on Minbari transport.
Again, you can't destroy what you can't find. At the time of the war, the most knowledge that anyone had is "Their border is somewhere around here... we think..."

Yes it relies on finding these worlds. But that's not a purely impossible task. I have a hard time believing no one in the LoNAW had a clue.


So, if their worlds can be located combining the new targeting program and drone ships I think a war could be fought with far better results than it was.

[Lighthawk]

Well said drones and tiny ships could do the scouting. And like I said they might have contact with aliens who know where the Minbari worlds are.

Actually, they really can't. As I stated before, only BIG ships have jump drives. The EF most certainly does not have time to wait YEARS for little robotic scouts to motor around at sub-light speeds. And also remember, jump points are easily detected. How many times in the series did we hear someone say " Jump point opening", usually several seconds before it did. So if you're jumping in close enough to a system to send your drone out to do scouting in any feasable time frame, odds are the Mimbari noticed you enter the system and are sending ships to investigate/kill you.

We have drone ships now why not in the future?

We have remote controlled drones now, and sending in RC drones to do the job your suggesting would be beyond stupid. It is of course quite possible that by the B5 years we could have fully automated drone vessels, but there's no reason to assume we will have military versions. Completely turning over the fighting to robots is something that has less to do with their capability, and more to do with our willingness to let them. As such, we really can't say for certain one way or the other if such military bots exist, though I must point out, that we never did see anything of the sort in B5.

Mass drivers maybe not. But we sure as hell have nukes. And we have FTL travel.

Yeah...okay?

Drone carriers could do it or drone swarms through a jump gate.

Yeah, they could, but again, resources. A capital ship is a lot of resources, and this plan has, IMO, a very low likely hood of success. I severly doubt you could convince anyone to dedicate the resources needed to make this plan work.

True. But you send multiple ones. Some would get through. Look at their capital ship the thing has tons of blind spots and not a lot of, to borrow a WoW term, AoE (Area of Effect Damage).

What makes you think it would matter? Unless you're talking about hundreds of drones, I'm pretty sure the Mimbari could swat them before they got in firing range.

1) Jump points are easily detected, so the Mimbari would know they are coming
2) Mimbari targeting systems seem pretty spot on. We've seen them blast starfuries out of space pretty easily, so they can hit a small, fast target no problem. They may not have AOE, but they can fire at a decent rate.
3) Blind spots are covered by their fighters.

Eh maybe. But the post is to find a way possible. Long shot yes but its hope. Their current plan relied on winning through defense.

Their current plan didn't even have winning as a goal. They were just trying to survive. The best the EF could hope for was to make the war costly enough that the Mimbari would give up and leave. Every other race found it un-fucking-believable that the human race lasted as long as they did, they expected the Mimbari to sweep the EF aside like dust and stomp all over earth.

1) No early warning. The only way the EF could know a Mimbari force was incoming would be if they had fighter patrols sweeping the area around planets and bases constantly, and even then it'd be easy to miss them as all you'd have were the pilot's eyes. Space IS REALLY FREAKING BIG. To have any meaningful warning time, you'd need those patrols millions of miles out from the planet/base. The area that would need to be patrolled would be vast beyond the human mind to really truly understand. These are distances the human eye just can not see across.

Reason butchering their population is so important.

...what? How the hell does that responce fit there?

That issue still needs working on.

That's not an issue, it's a core problem. Stealth tech is game breaking, just look at what the US air force did to Iraq with it's stealths, and those were just a few little fighters with a small payload. We're talking about every single ship, big and small.

Very true. Maybe a program could be designed that looked at star light around the ship, detected anolomies, targeted them, then shared information... actually... that's a great idea.

Now I'm not going to fault writers from 93-98 for not thinking of this but we have this technology now a days. Imagining ships in the future with it seems so simplistic. I think I just solved the targeting issue.

You don't target the ships. You target where starlight is being affected from. Sure you might have the occasional misfire and you'd need to install devices on EA ships so you don't hit friendlies but wow the answer is so easy.

Actually, it's not. While such a system could be useful, it's not as great as you think for one reason, distance. B5 battles have been shown taking place at vast distances. The fight between the narn and the shadows come to mind, both sides were taking shots at each other at distances were the other vessels couldn't even be seen as dots to the naked eye. At such distances, the Mimbari ships wouldn't blot out any stars except for maybe one at a time if the angle was just right. So such an optical targeting device would only be useful when you got close enough that a large enough % of the starfield is blotted out to give the system something to target. While it might work out decently to begin with, I'm pretty sure the Mimbari would notice that the EF ships were only getting a good bead on them at point blank ranges (as far as B5 captial ship battles go) and change their tactics to keep distance, thus rending the system useless.

Oh and Deep, chill man. No need to get that worked up over a hypothetical discussion. Maybe you should go work over a stress ball or something.

[Deepcrush]

I've said before that this plan relies on knowing their boarders. So assuming EA discovers that some how.

So then whats your plan when the ringing in your ears clears and you notice that 15 years after the war people still don't know this?

I think you misunderstood me there. I was speaking in hypothetical terms. IF EA won some victories THEN the EA would stand a chance. Not WHEN the EA won some victories THEN EA would stand a change. Its okay I know how reading goes for you.

I read it just fine and I'm still waiting for a real answer instead of a chakat style circle jerk. Where and how are you going to pull off these magic victories? I know you're a pussy but at least TRY to answer the question. If thats to much then pull a seafort and pretend to answer the question.

I love how you insult but you miss probably the second most basic concept of war. To win or at least force a stalemate which is what the original poster is talking about you have to hit back. Yes you can probably cause some serious carnage doing only defense but is it going to change the outcome? no.

Again, you're jerking around because you got caught acting like a retard again (though being yourself, I shouldn't be saying again). I read the OP, Win or stalemate. You can't win which means you have to work for a stalemate. As to the second most basic concept... WRONG... Ask anyone who has ever fought anything in their lives and the very FIRST concept you get a grip on is HIT THE BITCH BACK.

Look at it this way, I know you're familiar with WoW. In the Argent Tournament when you joust a NPC the easiest thing to do is to hit it over and over then when it moves away charge or do your ranged attack then hit again. But that takes forever. The far better approach is to sacrifice a little bit of health and move around and kill it like you're suppose to in order to win quickly. Its similar to that in this make believe war. You have to open yourself up a little bit, a unfortunate side effect of going on the offense, to make some real damage.

A, I'm not familiar with WoW.
B, I really would love to say to Master Sgt "but in Wow!" In WoW like any game you respawn. That doesn't work in a real war.

You want to compare war to video games, the closest you'll ever come to it. Look over America's Army or Counter Strike. Get a handle on what it is to NOT RESPAWN when a 7.62 hits your friend next to you.

A defensive war doesn't mean you sit there and get shot at. I means you put yourself into positions that you want and that you can use. Over stretch the enemy while shortening your lines. Prepare traps and ambushes. Bleed the enemy out to counter his range advantage.

Its like in WWI you could sit back on the D all day and take far fewer losses but you had to go on the offense to win.

More horse shit. WW1 had the option of victory. E-M war doesn't.

Yes this whole thing hinges on finding the planets but its a good plan if those planets can be found. Sitting back and making it so more of them die is only going to prolong the conflict and not change the end result.

Simply by prolonging the conflict you've changed the end result. Do you ever think before you type? Instead of two years, by which point 2 of the 3 castes were wanting peace, now its 3 years or 4 years. With the chance that two of the castes could have withdrawn fully from the war.

Very valid points. And I'll concede that that makes sense. But that does rely on knowledge not available to the EA. I suppose if the planets were found they could be infiltrated and this learned. In which case your best bet would be to nuke the training centers instead of populations. But that would be even more unlikely than finding the worlds.

But yeah very valid points.

Wrong, the EA knew about the want for peace from the Minbari. Because the Minbari sent a Ranger to speak with Sheridan. It was when the Centari attacked that things went south. Because both sides thought the other had committed the attack. Had EF fallen back to Sol then the Centari could never have launched the attack to begin with. The peace talks could have opened up dialog between EA and MF.

This isn't against you as you may not have seen "In the Beginning". That movie covers the E-M War. You should watch that as it will give you a much better idea about things.

Yes it relies on finding these worlds. But that's not a purely impossible task. I have a hard time believing no one in the LoNAW had a clue.

Believe it or not, I don't really care. It is what it is. You're plan requires you to bypass their border defenses, then scout ALL of their territory, then find their home world, which is most likely guarded so you have to bypass the guards, then confirm if the world has any value, then bypass the guards again to escape, then bypass the border guards, then make it all the way home.

Are you starting to see the problem with this plan yet or is it all still foggy in your head?

So, if their worlds can be located combining the new targeting program and drone ships I think a war could be fought with far better results than it was.

The EA isn't using Drone ships, they don't have a targeting system able to track Minbari ships and they still don't know the location of the Minbari home world. None of these things changed until the ISA came along. Minbar opened up to outsiders for the very first time. The EA built the Warlock class which was a hopeful match to the Sharlin but far from the numbers needed and the only drone ships used were the Centari ships. While those were able against lesser races with weaker systems they were still far inferior to the Narn, EA or MF ships.

------------------------------------------

Oh and Deep, chill man. No need to get that worked up over a hypothetical discussion. Maybe you should go work over a stress ball or something.

He's both a moron and a piece of shit... so I take a rather rude pleasure in reminding him of it. Whenever the chance arises. On the side note, this (DITL) is my stress ball. I come here, have a few laughs, run some RPs and then bash anyone who I catch doing something stupid.

[Monroe]

Now I don't want this to turn into a twenty-odd page thread where I prove you wrong over and over and you blabber on constantly only to have it locked and the mods PM me telling me that I destroyed your arguments but you too much of a bone head to accept that you're wrong.

So I'm going to wait 2-3 responses after your next post so other people can get involved.

So then whats your plan when the ringing in your ears clears and you notice that 15 years after the war people still don't know this?

What's your plan in 15 years and the Minbari are still attacking.. or smug in the fact they destroyed you in 3 years (as opposed to the normal 2) because you only sat and killed the ones who came to you with no objective in the war.

-Disclaimer- yeah I know the war would end by then anyway. But I'd like to think that that knowledge shouldn't have an impact on this thread cause then the OP topic wouldn't make sense.

I read it just fine and I'm still waiting for a real answer instead of a chakat style circle jerk. Where and how are you going to pull off these magic victories? I know you're a pussy but at least TRY to answer the question. If thats to much then pull a seafort and pretend to answer the question.

My plan has drones, a targeting solution, and a method of attack. Your plan has exactly what the EA did and hope for a different outcome. If you run your head into the wall and it still hurts why would you keep running it into the wall?

Again, you're jerking around because you got caught acting like a retard again (though being yourself, I shouldn't be saying again). I read the OP, Win or stalemate. You can't win which means you have to work for a stalemate. As to the second most basic concept... WRONG... Ask anyone who has ever fought anything in their lives and the very FIRST concept you get a grip on is HIT THE BITCH BACK.

jeez you're bitching about which rule is first in a make believe rule book of war that never existed? I figured surviving would be #1. Or at least damage to loss in your side's favor. But honestly I can't believe you're making a point of a make believe rule book. Its really sad. But fine in the make believe Rulebook of War you're absolutely right. I believe pages 289-294 cover it quite well.

A, I'm not familiar with WoW.
B, I really would love to say to Master Sgt "but in Wow!" In WoW like any game you respawn. That doesn't work in a real war.

A. my mistake. I know your gf plays, figured you would be familiar. The whole listening to interests and/or hobbies of girlfriends.
B. wow and I'm not talking about the video game. Just wow. Again you missed the whole point. I could have said chess but then you would say the grunts can step backwards. Its like when I used the apple example your lack of grasp on the most basic metaphors is astonishing.

A defensive war doesn't mean you sit there and get shot at. I means you put yourself into positions that you want and that you can use. Over stretch the enemy while shortening your lines. Prepare traps and ambushes. Bleed the enemy out to counter his range advantage.

I know and I agree. But you have to also hurt the enemy. You can't just absorb every attack and not throw anything back. Eventually your lines will fail. You can kill them in far greater numbers than you yourself lose. In the end your plan relies on OOU knowledge. IU knowledge would state that your plan is doomed because you have no offensive. You have no objective except hold out a little longer.

Wrong, the EA knew about the want for peace from the Minbari. Because the Minbari sent a Ranger to speak with Sheridan. It was when the Centari attacked that things went south. Because both sides thought the other had committed the attack. Had EF fallen back to Sol then the Centari could never have launched the attack to begin with. The peace talks could have opened up dialog between EA and MF.

I'm not familiar with this story. Guess I'll have to watch In the Beginning. What were the two other castes wanting at this point? It was before they believed that Minbari became humans wasn't it?

This isn't against you...

You really should work on your argument style.

Believe it or not, I don't really care. It is what it is. You're plan requires you to bypass their border defenses, then scout ALL of their territory, then find their home world, which is most likely guarded so you have to bypass the guards, then confirm if the world has any value, then bypass the guards again to escape, then bypass the border guards, then make it all the way home.

That last part isn't required. But eh what other choice do the EA see?

The EA isn't using Drone ships, they don't have a targeting system able to track Minbari ships and they still don't know the location of the Minbari home world.

I'm sorry I thought a thread asking how we would change things means that we have control over things.

-EA has drone technology. We have it today therefore they must have it in the future.
-I solved the targeting problem. Its not a perfect fix but it would allow ships to open fire.
-yes the Minbari homeworld is an issue as I've said before but if it can be found it can be nuked to death.

On the topic of Minbari words.

-Other species know of their worlds:
[quote"B5 Wiki"]The Norsai are a peaceful agrarian people living on the border of Minbari space.[1]

For centuries they relied on the Minbari for their protection. In 2261, they experienced devastating attacks against them by the Drakh and were amongst the hardest hit of the many worlds bordering the Minbari. With the Grey Council gone and Minbari divided, the Warrior Caste refused to act in their defense most likely because the treaty was initiated by the Religious Caste. [/quote]

Proving EA knew the location of worlds:

oping that they could prove to the Minbari they were a power not to be trifled with, Earth launched a strike against a Minbari mid-range military base. Earth's intentions were to strike with a fleet of forty starships and destroy the Minbari base, thus proving to the Minbari that they were powerful, and force the Minbari to the bargaining table.

I fixed this problem:

While Earth ships had enough firepower to cripple or destroy Minbari vessels, the Minbari warcruisers were equipped with highly advanced stealth systems which prevented Earthforce warships from achieving target lock

So as you can see while knowledge of their space is not known at the beginning of the war it could be learned quickly if the EA played their cards right. And my targeting solution alone would increase the 1-5 kill-loss ratio the EA ships had more than any vague 'bolster the defenses' strategy.

He's both a moron and a piece of s**t... so I take a rather rude pleasure in reminding him of it. Whenever the chance arises. On the side note, this (DITL) is my stress ball. I come here, have a few laughs, run some RPs and then bash anyone who I catch doing something stupid.

Its okay Deep after page 17 of that last argument we had I changed to enjoying making you more and more mad. You started off in the popular decision and by the end of it everyone was on my side of the argument. So if you want to make yourself look like a fool all over again by suggesting that by hardly doing any difference you're going to change the outcome of the Minbari-EA war go right ahead.

[Monroe]

Oops missed Lighthawk

Actually, they really can't. As I stated before, only BIG ships have jump drives. The EF most certainly does not have time to wait YEARS for little robotic scouts to motor around at sub-light speeds. And also remember, jump points are easily detected. How many times in the series did we hear someone say " Jump point opening", usually several seconds before it did. So if you're jumping in close enough to a system to send your drone out to do scouting in any feasable time frame, odds are the Mimbari noticed you enter the system and are sending ships to investigate/kill you.

That's a good point. Hmm I guess knowledge from other races is the only way. Then have massive drone ships that open up into a swarm of little ones. Kind of like how many tactical missiles work. But only... IN SPACE.

We have remote controlled drones now, and sending in RC drones to do the job your suggesting would be beyond stupid. It is of course quite possible that by the B5 years we could have fully automated drone vessels, but there's no reason to assume we will have military versions. Completely turning over the fighting to robots is something that has less to do with their capability, and more to do with our willingness to let them. As such, we really can't say for certain one way or the other if such military bots exist, though I must point out, that we never did see anything of the sort in B5.

True all around. But the technology is there.

Yeah, they could, but again, resources. A capital ship is a lot of resources, and this plan has, IMO, a very low likely hood of success. I severly doubt you could convince anyone to dedicate the resources needed to make this plan work.

Hey if we can devote resources to turning bats into bombs during WWII we can devote resources to this They're basically just massive missiles that spew out a swarm of nuclear drones. Not as expensive as a normal capital ship.

What makes you think it would matter? Unless you're talking about hundreds of drones, I'm pretty sure the Mimbari could swat them before they got in firing range.

Not sure, the Minbari cruiser has a lot of blind spots and is very poor at handling swarm tactics.

1) Jump points are easily detected, so the Mimbari would know they are coming
2) Mimbari targeting systems seem pretty spot on. We've seen them blast starfuries out of space pretty easily, so they can hit a small, fast target no problem. They may not have AOE, but they can fire at a decent rate.
3) Blind spots are covered by their fighters.

Valid points. But hey its the only proposed offensive program anyone has suggested. And yeah its not great but you can't win a war without offense. Someone propose a better offensive suggestion and I'll listen.

...what? How the hell does that responce fit there?

Well if you can't beat them one way try beating them another. Its the same approach terrorists make. They can't defeat the US military in a classic warfare style fight. But they can butcher enough civilians that the US will withdraw. The EA is in a similar plight. It can't defeat the Minbari military so the next best thing is butchering its population. Its not like there's any other option here.

Actually, it's not. While such a system could be useful, it's not as great as you think for one reason, distance. B5 battles have been shown taking place at vast distances. The fight between the narn and the shadows come to mind, both sides were taking shots at each other at distances were the other vessels couldn't even be seen as dots to the naked eye. At such distances, the Mimbari ships wouldn't blot out any stars except for maybe one at a time if the angle was just right. So such an optical targeting device would only be useful when you got close enough that a large enough % of the starfield is blotted out to give the system something to target. While it might work out decently to begin with, I'm pretty sure the Mimbari would notice that the EF ships were only getting a good bead on them at point blank ranges (as far as B5 captial ship battles go) and change their tactics to keep distance, thus rending the system useless.

You bring up a good point with the distances but for another reason. Light travels relatively slow. I guess we'd have to see how far combat happens at to know for sure. If light is delayed too much then it would be a big problem. But then you could have computers adjust for light delay and what not. And yes the ship would hardly blot out a star but again it doesn't have to. Remember how we detect exo-solar worlds? There are two ways, gravity, which would not be the way we would apply to ships. And a world that moves between its home star and us the viewers. The Minbari ship would behave the same way. Computers would detect like a 0.001% decrease in light and it would point to a ship being there.

I think it would be a very useful program. Naturally if the light takes 15 minutes to travel between sides of a conflict that would be an issue. But I don't think distances are that far in B5. Mars' ships weren't hitting Earth. So long as the lag time wasn't more than a few seconds it should work fine.

[Reliant121]

In support of Munroe, We dont know how expensive capital ship production is. Think about it, his drone ships would do without life support, or living space. EF uses the rotating sections to produce gravity. That is instantly gone, that is unnecessary. For all we know, that could easily be the most expensive part of a ship.

However.

Munroe, the point of this thread is to see if a stalemate is possible. Your plan produces a minimal chance of winning a war, but there is no way that the generals of the EF will use it. it's simply to expensive in general to be viable, with such a small window of success. The EF, the Centauri, the Narn all the other races, know Nothing of the Minbari at this point. The Centauri who know the most, know only the border. How can you fight a war agaisnt an enemy you dont know the location of? Space is vast, you cant simply depth charge the entirety of it. It would be like firing depth charges into the sea from the start of a naval war. The chance your going to hit something is infitesimally small.

[Deepcrush]

OMG, I've seen whores on the street with more sense then you...

Now I don't want this to turn into a twenty-odd page thread where I prove you wrong over and over and you blabber on constantly only to have it locked

Right, and when this happens in the real world, come and let us know. Other then everyone one here has torn apart all the crap you've posted on yet another subject to which you know nothing about.

and the mods PM me telling me that I destroyed your arguments but you too much of a bone head to accept that you're wrong.

Well, if you need to beg for help yet again... call them in here. Have them say in the open where and why I'm wrong. Ask them if you can post those PMs or if they'll speak for you. Until I see proof of anything you ever say. I'm going to treat you for liar that you are. Besides, I get PMs from admins and mods too, pretty often in fact and normally not happy ones. They haven't told me I'm wrong, just that they don't like the way I go about beating on you or other people when I'm right. PS, I don't give a shit that they don't like it. Since you act like trash, I'm going to treat you like trash. I'm sure you have plenty of little excuses of spins on how things are going. I'm sure you've tried to pretend that by not answering or flat out ignoring statements made by me makes them go away. Slit problem is that I never shut up... EVER. Which means that until you beg the mods to ask me to leave you alone again, or they lock the topic... I'm just going to keep beating you like bitch you are. And I'll love it, because it means yet another person who I get to break down and watch crawl about begging for help that will never come. Have a nice day.

So I'm going to wait 2-3 responses after your next post so other people can get involved.

Fair enough, I do the same from time to time.

What's your plan in 15 years and the Minbari are still attacking.. or smug in the fact they destroyed you in 3 years (as opposed to the normal 2) because you only sat and killed the ones who came to you with no objective in the war.

Wrong again. My plan, as stated several times over, not that you'd ever bother to read before you speak. Is to fight a defensive campaign against the Minbari. Had this have happened, the outer colonies would have been left alone. The inner colonies would have been covered in Sol, and the Religious and Worker Castes would have succeeded in starting up peace talks without outside interference. Had the peace talk been run inside of Minbari or Sol space then the Centauri attack never would have happened. The Warrior caste would have been isolated and then, when the next cycle came around (I think its every 1.2 earth years, no promises) then the other two thirds of the Grey Council could have voted to end the war. Earth would admit defeat, the Warrior caste would claim a victory, and everyone walks away ALIVE. That being the most important part.

-Disclaimer- yeah I know the war would end by then anyway. But I'd like to think that that knowledge shouldn't have an impact on this thread cause then the OP topic wouldn't make sense.

Agreed on this. 15 years of war would mean that by the end the only fighting going on would be the Minbari hunting down Human survivors spread out around the galaxy.

My plan has drones, a targeting solution, and a method of attack. Your plan has exactly what the EA did and hope for a different outcome. If you run your head into the wall and it still hurts why would you keep running it into the wall?

Since you've never seen the show or movies, I'll just point this one lightly. My plan has nothing to do with those of the EA during the War. In fact we know very little of the EA's over all plan. Though it seems the sent ships out on a regular basis which points to an aggressive policy. Not a defensive one like mine. You really should read before commenting back.

Your plan has drones, which is tech that is worthless since the EA has to use visual targeting. You're targeting solution has already been put down as its less effective then just using a lens. Last but not least, I'm stating this again since you've proven you're as good at reading as you are at being honest, my plan had nothing to do with what the EA did.

jeez you're bitching about which rule is first in a make believe rule book of war that never existed? I figured surviving would be #1. Or at least damage to loss in your side's favor. But honestly I can't believe you're making a point of a make believe rule book. Its really sad. But fine in the make believe Rulebook of War you're absolutely right. I believe pages 289-294 cover it quite well.

Anyone here who has served in the armed forces will tell you there are many books used in the instruction of war. All of which are based on how to... drum roll please.... how to kill the enemy in the most effective way possible. Sun Tzu's primary point of war is "Defeat the enemies will, not their army". This is the guy who truly wrote a Rule Book of War... And guess what... Its not pretend or make believe! What a wonder about that.

A. my mistake. I know your gf plays, figured you would be familiar. The whole listening to interests and/or hobbies of girlfriends.

Oh, I do listen, and I even played it for a while. I know what it is, I know what its about or the basics at least. But I'm not familiar with the gaming aspects of it. She's also my Ex g/f now. Was this really the best insult you could throw? A "you don't listen" joke?

B. wow and I'm not talking about the video game. Just wow. Again you missed the whole point. I could have said chess but then you would say the grunts can step backwards. Its like when I used the apple example your lack of grasp on the most basic metaphors is astonishing.

How cute, another dodge. I got what you were saying, I pointed it out and I gave you something closer to the matter to use for a better understanding. However, like whenever you get in a position that you can't grasp, you just skip answering the point and try to dodge. Either make a counter point or concede. Otherwise, you know I'm just going to keep beating on you about it.

I know and I agree. But you have to also hurt the enemy. You can't just absorb every attack and not throw anything back. Eventually your lines will fail. You can kill them in far greater numbers than you yourself lose. In the end your plan relies on OOU knowledge. IU knowledge would state that your plan is doomed because you have no offensive. You have no objective except hold out a little longer.

Wrong. Its not OOU knowledge. They knew there were peace talks going on because they were there. They knew that many in the Minbari command wanted the war to end because the Minbari told them so. The EF knows the effect of mines on the Minbari ships. They know they can't beat the Minbari in a stand up fight. So, don't go out looking for the enemy. Make them come to you. Try to think of the point of a Defensive War. Its to drain your enemy, not to defeat them in battle, but to make them feel that the forced victory isn't worth the cost when the other side is willing to bow down and say "You win" without anymore cost.

I'm not familiar with this story. Guess I'll have to watch In the Beginning. What were the two other castes wanting at this point? It was before they believed that Minbari became humans wasn't it?

The war ended when the Minbari found Minbari souls in humans. That was during the Battle of the Line.

You really should work on your argument style.

Normally I just hit people as stupid as you. Since that hasn't happened and I haven't offered too, I'm thinking I'm doing pretty well. Plus I have a hard time picturing you thinking, at least in a meaningful way.

That last part isn't required. But eh what other choice do the EA see?

You don't see them making it home with the very information that your whole plan rides on as important??? And yet you wonder why you're a joke to me.

I'm sorry I thought a thread asking how we would change things means that we have control over things.

You're control is limited to the scope of the Universe itself.

-EA has drone technology. We have it today therefore they must have it in the future.

A, prove it. B, prove that those drones can run a ship. C, prove that those drones can engage the Minbari since they don't have eyes.

-I solved the targeting problem. Its not a perfect fix but it would allow ships to open fire.

You didn't solve anything. You pointed something out that has already been shown to be worthless by those very people you say PM you how much they support you.

-yes the Minbari homeworld is an issue as I've said before but if it can be found it can be nuked to death.

Then prove that the EA in the E-M War has the ability to find it. Then prove they have the ability to hit it. Then show why the Minbari wouldn't just bypass the EF lines and glass Earth in response. Good luck.

-Other species know of their worlds:
[quote"B5 Wiki"]The Norsai are a peaceful agrarian people living on the border of Minbari space. For centuries they relied on the Minbari for their protection. In 2261, they experienced devastating attacks against them by the Drakh and were amongst the hardest hit of the many worlds bordering the Minbari. With the Grey Council gone and Minbari divided, the Warrior Caste refused to act in their defense most likely because the treaty was initiated by the Religious Caste.[1]

Wrong, this means like everyone else they know where the border is. Read your own statement.

Proving EA knew the location of worlds:

A mid-randed base... proves NOTHING. Other then the EA found out there was a base mid way between them and the enemy. More then likely a border depot. Even if its not they have no directed statement as to if this was even a Minbari world and not one of the worlds they protected. So, like the common for you, you've fail to prove anything.

I fixed this problem:

Regarding the targeting problem. No, you didn't fix anything. In fact the very people you claim always support you were the ones who shot this idea down before I even had a chance to speak on it. You've yet again failed to prove anything.

So as you can see while knowledge of their space is not known at the beginning of the war it could be learned quickly if the EA played their cards right. And my targeting solution alone would increase the 1-5 kill-loss ratio the EA ships had more than any vague 'bolster the defenses' strategy.

As everything you just said has been shot down by several people here and you're just unable or unwilling to listen... We're just going to state that you've still failed to prove anything.

Its okay Deep after page 17 of that last argument we had I changed to enjoying making you more and more mad. You started off in the popular decision and by the end of it everyone was on my side of the argument. So if you want to make yourself look like a fool all over again by suggesting that by hardly doing any difference you're going to change the outcome of the Minbari-EA war go right ahead.

You had one kid who knew nothing about the subject supporting you (another person who knew nothing on the subject) and somehow you think that is going to matter to me? You could have ten, twenty or fifty people supporting. I don't care since none of them knew anything about the subject at hand. When it comes to fighting, I trust people who have been involved in it. I have not in the past nor ever in the future have any care of what a bunch of uneducated civis have to say about how combat works. Oh, by the way, on that last argument, you didn't win, you ran away, then you begged some of the mods to make me stop. Don't feel bad, they didn't ignore you, they asked me to or at least asked me to be nicer about it. I laughed at it because you got raped so badly that you had to beg for mercy. Now, you can try to spin this as much as you want. Until you act with honesty I'm going to keep kicking your ass over every topic I catch you bullshitting in.

[SomosFuga]

In support of Munroe, We dont know how expensive capital ship production is. Think about it, his drone ships would do without life support, or living space. EF uses the rotating sections to produce gravity. That is instantly gone, that is unnecessary. For all we know, that could easily be the most expensive part of a ship.

Ok, no life support and living space (and of course no crew) made a ship cheaper but forget about the rotating section, at the time of the war, the main EF's ships were the Olympus, the Hyperion and the Nova, none of those had rotating section.