Re: Info on the USS Kelvin
Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:46 am
Wonderful indeed.Vic wrote:Isn't speculation wonderful?
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Possible Roles For Fighters
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Re: Info on the USS Kelvin
Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:22 am
I think you have in mind the WWII fighter bombers with torps or the dive bombers, both had to get very very close to their objetives. At the present time, fighters with antiship missiles and torpedoes are a very real menace for any kind of ship at medium range.Mikey wrote:And without going back and quoting everyone, there seems to be an idea that fighters could be extremely effective as torpedo-bombers. The use of such craft was tricky at best during WWII; in 24th century 'Trek - as GK as made reference to - the abilities of starships to provide "flak"/point defense/generally render fighters to be little more than a nuisance makes that prospect even riskier. Is it worth sending a whole wing - a whole flight, even - of fighters and pilots to their flaming deaths in order to land one or two torp hits? IF those fighters can even carry regular-sized torps?
Re: Info on the USS Kelvin
Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 12:44 pm
Missiles are a threat because they can be launched from over the horizon and can easily get lost to radar among the sea clutter, and torpedoes are even more difficult to pick up, especially if they're fired from below a thermal layer. In space there's no such interference to worry about.SomosFuga wrote:I think you have in mind the WWII fighter bombers with torps or the dive bombers, both had to get very very close to their objetives. At the present time, fighters with antiship missiles and torpedoes are a very real menace for any kind of ship at medium range.
Moreover, we've only ever seen torpedo shields when they've been launched at high speed - underslung weapons may not be able to generate their own, which would probably have some effect on their effectiveness.
Re: Info on the USS Kelvin
Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 12:46 pm
Don't photons generally draw antimatter from the launching vessel, or was that not canon?
Even squadrons of torpedo-armed Runabouts could be useful in a fleet battle, IMO. Although, I guess since we never saw them used that way, there must be some reason not to.
Even squadrons of torpedo-armed Runabouts could be useful in a fleet battle, IMO. Although, I guess since we never saw them used that way, there must be some reason not to.
Re: Info on the USS Kelvin
Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 12:56 pm
There was a TNG episode mind you where the E-D finds a Galor getting it's arse handed to it by Maquis fighters.
Re: Info on the USS Kelvin
Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 2:38 pm
Quite a leap of faith, to assume that a completely different delivery system could accomodate the exact same type of payload.SomosFuga wrote:True but this imaginary fighter does not have to use exactly the same type of torpedo a capital ship use, could be the same type of warhead but a quite different weapon, i still would like to call it "photon torpedo" because of its purpuse but this is spetially designed to be launched from a fighter.
You can't assume that analogy.. AFAIK, Photon torpedoes use somewhat different propulsion methods, launch methods, warheads, and guidance systems from modern RL wet torpedoes.SomosFuga wrote:If modern torpedoes can be launched from a variety of platforms which includes ships, submarines, choppers, fighters, and even missiles, why photon torpedoes couldn't?
Re: Info on the USS Kelvin
Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:26 pm
Have we ever seen a torp fired in that fashion? IIRC i've only seen them "launched"
Re: Info on the USS Kelvin
Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:59 am
What's stopping them just making a purpose-built torp that can be fired by fighters?
Re: Info on the USS Kelvin
Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:23 pm
That would be my question.Rochey wrote:What's stopping them just making a purpose-built torp that can be fired by fighters?
Re: Info on the USS Kelvin
Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:03 pm
Rochey wrote:What's stopping them just making a purpose-built torp that can be fired by fighters?
Probably the fact that such torpedo-bombers would be "one-and-done" affairs, and - as I mentioned - there are many factors contributing to the ineffectiveness of such things. Why build something that doesn't help, even if you can build it?
Re: Info on the USS Kelvin
Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:17 pm
Yes, they get one volley and they're done. However a ship like a GCS could easily accommodate two or three dozen fighters in that huge hanger it has. While they might be one and done for very little cost you get the ability to lob between 48 and 144 torpedoes in a single volley at a target, maybe even more. The ability to go from putting 5 to 10 torps on target to that kind of volley is big. Given the size of starships a few fighters is a small investment for a potentially big return in a combat situation.
Re: Info on the USS Kelvin
Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:26 pm
Seeing the apparently strong defenses a typical starship has against fighters (see Graham's post last page) I think you're talking about a relatively small number of craft getting close enough for an effective launch, and an even smaller number returning their pilots home.
Re: Info on the USS Kelvin
Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:31 pm
If you're just dealing with a single ship on ship action they would be of limited use. However in a large fleet engagements with numerous capital ships involved it's much more likely that these small one shot weapons wouldn't get targeted in favor of the many other ships present. I don't think anyone's suggesting they would be some kind of uber weapons so much as simply useful at times.
Re: Info on the USS Kelvin
Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:16 pm
Why? photon torpedoes are probably the more common weapon in 24 century ST and they are use by lots of different species with quite different technology for a long period. Yes, all of them AFAIK use launchers but we can assume that those are completely different delivery systems, changing depending on the species and even on the age.Mikey wrote:Quite a leap of faith, to assume that a completely different delivery system could accomodate the exact same type of payload.SomosFuga wrote:True but this imaginary fighter does not have to use exactly the same type of torpedo a capital ship use, could be the same type of warhead but a quite different weapon, i still would like to call it "photon torpedo" because of its purpuse but this is spetially designed to be launched from a fighter.
Anyway I didn't say same payload, i said same type of warhead, but yes should be the similar payload too.
I'm not trying to launch/fire a pt from a present day fighter or helicopter but a 24 century platform especially designed for that purpuse.Mikey wrote:You can't assume that analogy.. AFAIK, Photon torpedoes use somewhat different propulsion methods, launch methods, warheads, and guidance systems from modern RL wet torpedoes.SomosFuga wrote:If modern torpedoes can be launched from a variety of platforms which includes ships, submarines, choppers, fighters, and even missiles, why photon torpedoes couldn't?
Re: Info on the USS Kelvin
Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:42 pm
What is a typical starship? certainly a Sovereign or even a Galaxy aren't, they are the best we've seen in alpha and beta quadrants for the second half of the 24th century; a much more common ship could be something in the level of a K'T'Inga, Miranda, or Excelsior; though somebody could say those are very old classes so take an Oberth, Bird of Prey (100m long)Jemhadar Attack Ship, Romulan Scout, Talarian Scout, Talarian Warship, Kazon Raider, Hideki, even a Galor; all of them could be feasible targets for a small force of fighters.Mikey wrote:Seeing the apparently strong defenses a typical starship has against fighters (see Graham's post last page) I think you're talking about a relatively small number of craft getting close enough for an effective launch, and an even smaller number returning their pilots home.