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Deepcrush wrote:The standard Neb w/ WP is that proven and less then the SOTA. The upgrades for both hull and pod are things that won't happen over night and are by no means rushed. The refit is a future matter that will benefit the UFP. While in the present the Neb is perfect for the Backbone role even as it is.

Then leave the Neb as-is. If you want a new cruiser, build a proper one, don't try and turn a ship design as a jack-of-all trades into a warship. Likewise, don't waste your brand-new cruiser on routine backwater patrol, exploration and scientific duties.

There's no reason that you couldn't use the Ambassador is such a way while still in the role of a cruiser. In fact it works pretty well. Like you said, need a ship but you don't want to send a top of the line cruiser (of any class). Then you can send the Ambassadors. There may not be many of them. But there are enough for the job of back-water patrol or show of intrest missions.

Fair enough - my objection was to the refit you suggested, not to using it as a backwater patrol ship.

I have to strongly disagree with most of this. The Lakota refit bring a number of things to SF. First it puts life back in a known and trusted hull. Second it helps to replace the lost combat ability of the UFP after the DW.

The Lakota is certainly an effective combatant, but the fact that we never saw Lakota-model Excelsiors in action during the war suggests that the project was a failure when it came to large-scale refits. There's no point spending a billion quid apiece rebuilding Exs into powerful modern combatants if you can produce a new build for 700 million. The new build would also be right at the start of its hull life, with plenty of development potential of its own - that's the type of ship you want to rebuild the fleet, not something that's a century old and has had all its development potential squeezed out of it.

Cargo runs are a huge amount of leg work better left to those little POS ships we've seen popping up in FC or later DS9. The same holds true to the back-water patrols. Missions like these are better left for newer hulls with better engines.

Again, I disagree. Better to leave backwater patrols and cargo runs to an old ship nearing the end of its life than a brand new one. The newer ships are likely to be faster, with better technology and more development potential - you don't want to waste them on stuff that any old thing could do. As well as that, the fact that the Ex is a lot bigger than those ships is an advantage - more room for cargo.

I thought about this same problem. But, since we want to stick as close to canon as possible. I figured to compare the Defiant class to a modern day Coast Guard vessel. Guided missiles and torpedos make them more then a match for anything built more then 30 years ago. That is dispite their size.

Taking the Defiant along this line seems to work. A short range ship with as much fire power packed into the hull as they could fit. Maybe even a little extra since the ship can fly itself apart and dumps raw warp core power straight into it's pulse phasers. Over stacked in armor and fair shields you have what I guess you would call a "Heavy?" Destroyer.

There isn't really a modern equivalent to the Defiant. It's weapons fit makes it the equivalent of a FPB with a couple of quad Exocet launchers, but it can withstand the same sort of punishment as a battleship. That's why I suggested it's a monitor - heavy armour and big guns, but pretty poor strategic mobility.

I agree with Seafort; the closest RL analog would be a monitor.

JudgeKing wrote:Battleship: Uprated Galaxy
Battlecruiser: Sovereign Mk II, Vesta-class
Tactical Cruiser: Prometheus-class
Heavy Cruiser: Luna-class, Ambassador-class, Akira-class, Nebula-class
Cruiser: Excelsior-class, Steamrunner-class, Norway-class
Light Cruiser: Intrepid-class
Destroyer: Defiant-class
Scout: Sabre-class
Science Ship: Nova-class
Hospital Ship: Olympic-class

Muesem ships
-NX-class
-Deadalus-class
-Constitution-class
-Constellation-class
-1st and 2nd production run Excelsior-class ships
-Miranda-class

Not sure how much sense comes out of this.

GCS as a Battleship? That's just not going to work. Not next to the fact we have a Battlecruiser (Sov) that would curbstomp the GCS even uprated.

Battlecruisers - Sov yes. What kind of support role does the Vesta Class serve that aren't already met by a Canon design?

Tactical Cruiser - Prometheus-class? What do you mean Tactical? What role with this serve that other cruisers can't in the form of tactical operations?

Heavy Cruiser - Luna-class, Ambassador-class, Akira-class, Nebula-class.
What is the Luna class? How can you picture an Ambassador as being able to match in the Heavy slot? Akira, maybe but that's a stretch since she's a carrier/missile cruiser. Nebula class only if we are talking about the upgrades we had talked about. Otherwise she's still to light.

Cruisers - Excelsior-class, Steamrunner-class and Norway-class.
All three of these ships are far to light to be a main line cruiser. No matter how much I like the Excelsior, its run as a full fledged cruiser is over.

Light Cruiser - Intrepid-class.
Between this ship and the Refitted Excelsior, I'm going with the refitted Excelsior. The Intrepid is much better off as a science ship. She has no reason to be part of planned fleet deployment.

Destroyer & Scout should be filled by the Defiant-class. Since that's the only ship class in the fleet that cloaks. Scouting missions are better off in the Defiants hands. The Norway and Steamrunner classes could be thrown here. Not the best for the job but it gives them some where to live out their lives.

Science Ships - Nova and Intrepid.
Hospital Ship - Olympic class. Since its the only choice we have.

Cargo ship & Transports - Shelley, Sabers, Norways and Steamrunners. The Shelley is a dedicated transport/cargo ships for large hauls. The other three are useless classes that just need to be given jobs to keep them out of the way.

Muesem ships

Just aren't important for the modern fleet. Keep one or two of every class and scrap the rest for parts and material.

Guys, can we keep the selections to canon ships? Most of us won't have a clue what you're talking about otherwise.

Rochey wrote:Guys, can we keep the selections to canon ships? Most of us won't have a clue what you're talking about otherwise.

I looked for the Vesta and Luna class but I couldn't find them. Where are they from and are they ST ships?

Luna-class is the Titan. From the novels.

Here is a link, Deep.

Then leave the Neb as-is. If you want a new cruiser, build a proper one, don't try and turn a ship design as a jack-of-all trades into a warship. Likewise, don't waste your brand-new cruiser on routine backwater patrol, exploration and scientific duties.

There's nothing wrong with casting a few minor upgrades to keep the ship top shape. Most of the combat upgrades we talked about would be on the "New" weapons pod. So, just like before you can just swap it out.

Also, a new and proper heavy cruiser would be great but SF doesn't have one. Since the Neb is the closest thing we have that's were we have to start from. A few years down the line that may change but we have to plan for what we have.

With the S/E duties, leave that to the Nova and Intrepid classes.

Fair enough - my objection was to the refit you suggested, not to using it as a backwater patrol ship.

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I didn't mean a Lakota style refit. More like updating the ships systems. Sensor's, shields, computers and etc...

The Lakota is certainly an effective combatant, but the fact that we never saw Lakota-model Excelsiors in action during the war suggests that the project was a failure when it came to large-scale refits. There's no point spending a billion quid apiece rebuilding Exs into powerful modern combatants if you can produce a new build for 700 million. The new build would also be right at the start of its hull life, with plenty of development potential of its own - that's the type of ship you want to rebuild the fleet, not something that's a century old and has had all its development potential squeezed out of it.

A.) We really don't know the cost of the refit. No doubt its high but is it more costly then building a brand new cruiser? The Excelsior may have been choosen for a reason. Maybe the class is more open to upgrades which would explain why it has remained such a high standing ship. Or it was the only ship around at the time. Besides, if anything. I want all those new cruisers out on the frontier borders. Watching danger zones and hostile powers. Not in the core systems training new personel.

Again, I disagree. Better to leave backwater patrols and cargo runs to an old ship nearing the end of its life than a brand new one. The newer ships are likely to be faster, with better technology and more development potential - you don't want to waste them on stuff that any old thing could do. As well as that, the fact that the Ex is a lot bigger than those ships is an advantage - more room for cargo.

For large cargo runs we have the Shelley Class. A ship built for hauling. Is there any reason to think that the Excelsior would make an even half way decent cargo ship?

There isn't really a modern equivalent to the Defiant. It's weapons fit makes it the equivalent of a FPB with a couple of quad Exocet launchers, but it can withstand the same sort of punishment as a battleship. That's why I suggested it's a monitor - heavy armour and big guns, but pretty poor strategic mobility.

Like I said, I agree with you. But it's still listed as an escort in ST. Doesn't mean thats how it has to be used. That's just how its listed. Since SF fails to really position its ships with anything close to idea of thought. We're really free to deploy the fleet as we see fit. Just like the Ambassador being a cruiser but still being sent out on patrol.

Those little ships (Saber and other ships of the day) should be treated as fillers. What job do we have today that we don't want to send a ship that we care about for?

RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:Luna-class is the Titan. From the novels.

Here is a link, Deep.

I think we'll have to leave that ship out of the listing. Not enough information for us to use.

EDIT

I just looked at the Vesta class. A wank ship with poor balance and little to no solid information. Most of what is listed on Beta seems to be meaningless filler thrown onto a super ship.

This is another class that we should just leave out.

*Looks up Vesta-class* Ugh, that is so... ugh! There is no other word for it.

Yeah, my thoughts on the dot! Total bullshit class. Then again it is a wiki about a non canon ship.

I do however like the Achilles class... I'd never use it for our wrap up but still. I like the idea of it.

Deepcrush wrote:There's nothing wrong with casting a few minor upgrades to keep the ship top shape. Most of the combat upgrades we talked about would be on the "New" weapons pod. So, just like before you can just swap it out.

Wherupon we get back into the argument over hoe easy that refit is. A QT pod I don't have a problem with, but there's too much infrastructure supporting the phasers to make them an easy swap.

Also, a new and proper heavy cruiser would be great but SF doesn't have one. Since the Neb is the closest thing we have that's were we have to start from. A few years down the line that may change but we have to plan for what we have.

It would take a few years for these refitted Nebs to start joining the fleet in significant numbers anyway. You be better off holding on with what you have until the new ships start coming into service. A QT weapons pod would significantly improve the ships' combat strength, and more importantly could be fabricated separately and then attached in a short dockyard stay. As for a "heavy cruiser" - that's effectively what the Prometheus is. Type-XII phasers, QTs, ablative armour, etc - all the stuff you wanted to cram onto the Neb, but it's designed for it, it's a purpose-built warship, and is at the start of it's development life. I would, however, want a Batch II Prommie, without MVAM. Without that it's a good ship.

With the S/E duties, leave that to the Nova and Intrepid classes.

They're good for the low capability stuff, but they don't have the sheer capacity of the Neb for bigger, better techology.

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I didn't mean a Lakota style refit. More like updating the ships systems. Sensor's, shields, computers and etc...

Software and sensor updates are fair enough, but I wouldn't advise trying to physically pull out big bits of hardware.

A.) We really don't know the cost of the refit. No doubt its high but is it more costly then building a brand new cruiser?

More expensive, more difficult or more time consuming, given that we didn't see any Lakota-model ships in the fleet actions.

Besides, if anything. I want all those new cruisers out on the frontier borders. Watching danger zones and hostile powers. Not in the core systems training new personel.

I entirely agree.

For large cargo runs we have the Shelley Class. A ship built for hauling. Is there any reason to think that the Excelsior would make an even half way decent cargo ship?

I was comparing it to the "POS" classes, as you put it. The Shelley, assuming it's the Frankenstein with the big forward hull, is just that - a Frankenstein. I very much doubt any of those ships are truly spaceworthy, and they should be withdrawn as soon as possible. Once they're out of the way, you're left with either the newer, faster ships that ought to be on the front line, or old designs like the Excelsior that really aren't up to front line service any more. Nonetheless, they're big ships, and should have plenty of room for cargo.

Just like the Ambassador being a cruiser but still being sent out on patrol.

Eh? Patrol is what cruisers do.

Those little ships (Saber and other ships of the day) should be treated as fillers. What job do we have today that we don't want to send a ship that we care about for?

Live weapons tests. If you're looking for an active role, then the best choice would be either system defence, or convoy escort.

Wherupon we get back into the argument over hoe easy that refit is. A QT pod I don't have a problem with, but there's too much infrastructure supporting the phasers to make them an easy swap.

Easy, tough, doesn't matter really. There's no rush for them. The pod is the major deal. The phasers and or shields are just bonus. If they don't want them then they don't have to have them. If the ship is taking it's crew for a few weeks of R&R... no reason they can't park in a drydock while they're there. Again, its all just an option. A good option but still just an option.

It would take a few years for these refitted Nebs to start joining the fleet in significant numbers anyway. You be better off holding on with what you have until the new ships start coming into service. A QT weapons pod would significantly improve the ships' combat strength, and more importantly could be fabricated separately and then attached in a short dockyard stay. As for a "heavy cruiser" - that's effectively what the Prometheus is. Type-XII phasers, QTs, ablative armour, etc - all the stuff you wanted to cram onto the Neb, but it's designed for it, it's a purpose-built warship, and is at the start of it's development life. I would, however, want a Batch II Prommie, without MVAM. Without that it's a good ship.

I don't really think that I would want ablative armor on the Nebs. I'm not sure if their hulls would do well to support that much extra weight.

As to a Batch 2 Prometheus? I like that idea, like it a lot. Say we go with that? Skip the hull upgrades to the Nebs. I'd still like to see the new pods. Those could be purpose built (I know, we already got that part) to support newer operations. Plus, it would keep a proven JoAT ship in the fleet. One that can serve well in both peace time and war time.

Does that sound like a fair trade to you?

They're good for the low capability stuff, but they don't have the sheer capacity of the Neb for bigger, better techology.

Low capability? If they are built only around the S/E functions then they should be more then able. I would rather send a GCS than a Neb. The GCS isn't really as able for upgrades. If we are looking to keep a strong standing fleet then I'd rather move a ship that isn't as powerful. Plus I just trust the Neb alot more then the GCS.

Software and sensor updates are fair enough, but I wouldn't advise trying to physically pull out big bits of hardware.

Then we're agreed.

More expensive, more difficult or more time consuming, given that we didn't see any Lakota-model ships in the fleet actions.

True, but if those Excelsiors are on training and Core Patrol. They have all the time they want. If the first class doesn't finish the work. Then the second class can.

Besides, if anything. I want all those new cruisers out on the frontier borders. Watching danger zones and hostile powers. Not in the core systems training new personel.

I entirely agree.

Seems we found another compact. Excelsiors under go the refit. Instead of being a ship of the line though. The upgrades and refits will be handled entirely by new recruits as part of their training. Added bonus, if they mess up no one will care because it just means more pratice for the next crew.

I was comparing it to the "POS" classes, as you put it. The Shelley, assuming it's the Frankenstein with the big forward hull, is just that - a Frankenstein. I very much doubt any of those ships are truly spaceworthy, and they should be withdrawn as soon as possible. Once they're out of the way, you're left with either the newer, faster ships that ought to be on the front line, or old designs like the Excelsior that really aren't up to front line service any more. Nonetheless, they're big ships, and should have plenty of room for cargo.

What truely hurts us here is the lack of a solid cargo ship in the fleet. We don't know how much space is in the Shelley. The Excelsior has to many reasons to avoid cargo duty. The frankenshit fleet needs to GO GO GO! A Neb pod could be built for cargo but thats a waste of a good ship. The GCS can carry a great deal of cargo but again a waste of a ship.

Maybe our next DITL ship should be a Cargo/Transport ship. That would solve the problem for us.

Eh? Patrol is what cruisers do.

I would rather use Destroyers and Frigates for patrol. Reason being is that SF needs to start maintaining standing battle groups. The RSE, Breen, Borg, all have their reasons to move against the UFP. If I have the choice, I want my cruisers, Heavy Cruisers and Battle Cruisers in those Battle Groups. For sectors that need a bit tougher punch then those Destroyers and Frigates can provide. We have Defiants and Ambassadors.

Live weapons tests. If you're looking for an active role, then the best choice would be either system defence, or convoy escort.

True enough.

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Seafort and I seem to be batting a few ideas back and forth about the Modern Starfleet.

Battleship Role - Paladin (since there isn't any other ship to take it).

Battle Cruiser - Sov (again, there just isn't any contest).

Heavy Cruiser - GCS (uprated) Nebula (uprated + new pod) Prometheus (Batch 2, MVAM removed).

Standard Cruiser - Akira and Ambassador.

Light Cruiser - Excelsior (Refit to be completed as part of training recruits) Norway and Steamrunner.

Destroyer/Monitor - Defiant (the tough but confused little ship).

Frigate/Escort - Saber, Miranda and Centaur.

Cargo - Shelley (the only choice we have yet again).

S/E - Intrepid and Nova.

How does this work for everyone?

Luna-class is the Titan. From the novels.

Here is a link, Deep.

Given that there's not useful information provided on that page, it's a bit hard to know whether or not that ship would even function well in its role. For all we know it could be just the GCS MK2.

From what I've heard the Luna is portrayed as a very robust ship, it was designed to be sent into deep space away from friendly territory for years at a time.

Yeah, but without specs like size, armament, crew capacity, speed, endurance, etc, it's pointless to say that it's good as a battlecruiser.