Page 3 of 10
Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:48 pm
by Sionnach Glic
Actually I never suggested they didn't have shields.
I prefer the idea of conformal shields, as I stated earlier.
Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 11:44 pm
by robjkay
Rochey wrote:Thats not a very smart way of doing things.
Sure, you may be able to repair damage. But it takes up resources and it is far better to simply prevent damage and crew casualties being caused in the first place.
Yeah but the borg simply do not care about preventing damage or preventing casualties and or using there resources. Resources it would seem the Borg ships have plenty to spare.
If you think of the Borg as a whole and not just one ship the damage to a single or a couple of ship, crew casualties, & regenerating is simply irrelevant to them.
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:32 am
by Teaos
They may not care about it like we do but it you can prevent it why wouldn't you.
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:50 am
by MetalHead
robjkay wrote:Rochey wrote:Thats not a very smart way of doing things.
Sure, you may be able to repair damage. But it takes up resources and it is far better to simply prevent damage and crew casualties being caused in the first place.
Yeah but the borg simply do not care about preventing damage or preventing casualties and or using there resources. Resources it would seem the Borg ships have plenty to spare.
If you think of the Borg as a whole and not just one ship the damage to a single or a couple of ship, crew casualties, & regenerating is simply irrelevant to them.
exactly what Teaos said though. The all bearing word - Efficency. It is far more efficent AND logical to prevent damage and casualties when they can be avoided all together. The only way I can argue it is to think they cannot GARUNTEE prevention of said damages so they don't even bother.
(haha, imagine if the Borg had british accents - shields? no mate, can't be arrssseeed)
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:47 am
by robjkay
MetalHead wrote:robjkay wrote:Rochey wrote:Thats not a very smart way of doing things.
Sure, you may be able to repair damage. But it takes up resources and it is far better to simply prevent damage and crew casualties being caused in the first place.
Yeah but the borg simply do not care about preventing damage or preventing casualties and or using there resources. Resources it would seem the Borg ships have plenty to spare.
If you think of the Borg as a whole and not just one ship the damage to a single or a couple of ship, crew casualties, & regenerating is simply irrelevant to them.
exactly what Teaos said though. The all bearing word - Efficency. It is far more efficent AND logical to prevent damage and casualties when they can be avoided all together. The only way I can argue it is to think they cannot GARUNTEE prevention of said damages so they don't even bother.
(haha, imagine if the Borg had british accents - shields? no mate, can't be arrssseeed)
As a whole it is efficient to them! What we think is efficient and logical is completely different to the Borg.
The Borg could care less about damage or casualties it is irrelevant to them! A Borg cube can operate efficiently lossing about 75% of itself and then still be able to regenerate. Casualties are easly replaced by simply assimilating more lifeforms which they would have done anyway.
Also other the the Federation and Species 8472 nobody has stood a chance against the Borg. Even though Stafleet has been able to defeat the Borg it took a great emount of ships and alot of loses to stop it.
So to me it sounds pretty efficient and the Borg have a pretty good thing going for them!
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 3:07 am
by Mikey
Althoug it is impossible for any of us to think like the Borg, how about this: if we assume that the Borg use a non-shield defensive technology - materials-based or whatever - perhaps their ability to adapt to each new type of attack depends on actual contact with that form of attack?
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:12 am
by Sionnach Glic
The Borg could care less about damage or casualties it is irrelevant to them! A Borg cube can operate efficiently lossing about 75% of itself and then still be able to regenerate. Casualties are easly replaced by simply assimilating more lifeforms which they would have done anyway.
This is still ineficient. You must expend resources repairing your ship. These resources are simply wasted if you could have prevented the damage in the first place. If they care little about squandering resources they should have no problem with using some of their power to charge a shield. And the fact that they shield their drones shows that they
do care about preventing casualties. If they didn't care, why do they bother?
Althoug it is impossible for any of us to think like the Borg, how about this: if we assume that the Borg use a non-shield defensive technology - materials-based or whatever - perhaps their ability to adapt to each new type of attack depends on actual contact with that form of attack?
Perhaps, but why do they not put this on their drones instead of using a shield which must be powered?
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:42 am
by Teaos
The Federation can read and adjust to weapons fire given time so it stands to reason the Borg could to with out having half a ship blown up.
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:09 pm
by robjkay
Rochey wrote:The Borg could care less about damage or casualties it is irrelevant to them! A Borg cube can operate efficiently lossing about 75% of itself and then still be able to regenerate. Casualties are easly replaced by simply assimilating more lifeforms which they would have done anyway.
This is still ineficient. You must expend resources repairing your ship. These resources are simply wasted if you could have prevented the damage in the first place. If they care little about squandering resources they should have no problem with using some of their power to charge a shield. And the fact that they shield their drones shows that they
do care about preventing casualties. If they didn't care, why do they bother?
Althoug it is impossible for any of us to think like the Borg, how about this: if we assume that the Borg use a non-shield defensive technology - materials-based or whatever - perhaps their ability to adapt to each new type of attack depends on actual contact with that form of attack?
Perhaps, but why do they not put this on their drones instead of using a shield which must be powered?
I do not understand, how is ineficient? It takes a whole fleet of starships to damage 1 Borg vessel, it not like there ships are prone to getting damaged. What does get damaged take minutes to repair! You assume it take tons of resources to repair when it probably doesn't!
The reason they to a point the Borg do not worry about casualties or preventing them is because they do not have a problem killing there own kind. Also its a feeling to care or to worry about casualties which the Borg do not have, feeling is ineficient.
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:18 pm
by Captain Seafort
The reason it takes tons of equipment to repair a given area (for example the damage suffered by the cube in Q Who) is because tons of the vessel's mass has been blasted into space. These resources might be better used assisting with assimilation, or some such. Fundamentally, it is more resource intensive (and downright stupid) to hope you survive damage and repair it later rather than avoiding that damage in the first place.
Incidentally, the claim of a cube being able to survive 75% damage was Shelby's projection based on the encounter in Q Who. In practice, the cube in that episode backed off to regenerate after suffering far less severe damage, and subsequent encounters (notably First Contact, Dark Frontier and Endgame) depicted cubes being destroyed after suffering comparatively minor damage.
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:43 pm
by Granitehewer
ok i'm admittedly rather cr*p at physics and maths, and computing and women.............but surely for the size/volume of a cube and the resources needed to build/maintain one, it is very inefficient in its capabilities........??!!
Getting past, the mythology and fanboy pleasures of the cube, it does seem a bit of a waste...not to mention ridiculous,the whole; 'borg cube repairing damage but not having much of a shield because the borg only react' wears a bit thin,considering how long they've managed to last as a race.
Ok,thats my point, be gentle and use little words,if any points,are made involving numbers
Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:46 pm
by robjkay
Captain Seafort wrote:The reason it takes tons of equipment to repair a given area (for example the damage suffered by the cube in Q Who) is because tons of the vessel's mass has been blasted into space. These resources might be better used assisting with assimilation, or some such. Fundamentally, it is more resource intensive (and downright stupid) to hope you survive damage and repair it later rather than avoiding that damage in the first place.
Incidentally, the claim of a cube being able to survive 75% damage was Shelby's projection based on the encounter in Q Who. In practice, the cube in that episode backed off to regenerate after suffering far less severe damage, and subsequent encounters (notably First Contact, Dark Frontier and Endgame) depicted cubes being destroyed after suffering comparatively minor damage.
Why was it stupid? Not one Starfleet vessel can take that type of damage even with there shields. Nor did it take tons of equipment to repair the Borg ship. Remember it can regenerate without the need to stop for long periods of time doing time comsuming repairs by the crew, nor do they have to stop later on at a starbase to get the ship a refit or get additional repair all of which takes time! In the end its takes less resouces to repair a Borg ship then a Starfleet vessel.
The only reason the Q Who Borg vessel sustained so much damage was because it let itself happen to determine the defenses of Enterprise of which the damage was repaired in minutes and if it was not for Q taking them back to Federation space the Enterprise would have been assimilated.
As far as Shelby's projection, it was pretty much true! But as far as other Borg ships being destoyed suffering far less severe damage. Well nobody said the ship was perfect nor is has it been said that it can stop or prevent something in the ships destruction. Sometimes the simplest things can take down the most powerful ships also the most powerful ships are never invincable.
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 12:50 am
by MetalHead
robjkay wrote:Captain Seafort wrote:The reason it takes tons of equipment to repair a given area (for example the damage suffered by the cube in Q Who) is because tons of the vessel's mass has been blasted into space. These resources might be better used assisting with assimilation, or some such. Fundamentally, it is more resource intensive (and downright stupid) to hope you survive damage and repair it later rather than avoiding that damage in the first place.
Incidentally, the claim of a cube being able to survive 75% damage was Shelby's projection based on the encounter in Q Who. In practice, the cube in that episode backed off to regenerate after suffering far less severe damage, and subsequent encounters (notably First Contact, Dark Frontier and Endgame) depicted cubes being destroyed after suffering comparatively minor damage.
What was it that worf said after that (immensely awesome) scene where the E-D vaporized loads of their ship with the phasers? somewhere around %20 destroyed?
That scene shows how the Borg, at first encounter, could have *potentially* been destroyed, but their adaptation system allowed them to take shots to the hull with little or no effect. Even at high warp (9+?) they were regenerating, and thats gotta take alot of power!!!
Why was it stupid? Not one Starfleet vessel can take that type of damage even with there shields. Nor did it take tons of equipment to repair the Borg ship. Remember it can regenerate without the need to stop for long periods of time doing time comsuming repairs by the crew, nor do they have to stop later on at a starbase to get the ship a refit or get additional repair all of which takes time! In the end its takes less resouces to repair a Borg ship then a Starfleet vessel.
The only reason the Q Who Borg vessel sustained so much damage was because it let itself happen to determine the defenses of Enterprise of which the damage was repaired in minutes and if it was not for Q taking them back to Federation space the Enterprise would have been assimilated.
As far as Shelby's projection, it was pretty much true! But as far as other Borg ships being destoyed suffering far less severe damage. Well nobody said the ship was perfect nor is has it been said that it can stop or prevent something in the ships destruction. Sometimes the simplest things can take down the most powerful ships also the most powerful ships are never invincable.
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:46 am
by Sionnach Glic
Not one Starfleet vessel can take that type of damage even with there shields.
So what?
Nor did it take tons of equipment to repair the Borg ship.
How do you know? We never saw the repair process from the inside.
And you would
need stores of raw materials to repair the ship.
Remember it can regenerate without the need to stop for long periods of time doing time comsuming repairs by the crew, nor do they have to stop later on at a starbase to get the ship a refit or get additional repair all of which takes time!
I know this. The point is
your ship was needlessly damaged.
In the end its takes less resouces to repair a Borg ship then a Starfleet vessel.
Red Herring. We're talking about the Borg, not Starfleet who are the height of inneficiency.
The only reason the Q Who Borg vessel sustained so much damage was because it let itself happen to determine the defenses of Enterprise
Odd how we see other vessels doing the exact same thing with their sensors. You know, without getting damaged.
of which the damage was repaired in minutes
So? It still needed to be repaired.
As far as Shelby's projection, it was pretty much true!
Wrong. Every Borg ship we have ever seen destroyed took far less than 75% damage to its hull.
But as far as other Borg ships being destoyed suffering far less severe damage. Well nobody said the ship was perfect nor is has it been said that it can stop or prevent something in the ships destruction.
Uh, are you agreeing here that Borg ships can be destroyed with less than 75% damage? I honestly dont get this part.
Sometimes the simplest things can take down the most powerful ships also the most powerful ships are never invincable.
No one ever said they are. We said you don't need to destroy 75% of the ship to knock it out of action.
Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:44 am
by Teaos
I suppose what you class as operational. That cube in that the 8472 ship was attached to still had life support and some systems an it didnt seem to be more than 20% of the ship.