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We went over it and, as I recall, concluded that output was likely somewhere in the TW range, disregarding the Voyager and Data's quotes because the former was Harry Kim warning off Seven (and therefore may well have misspoken) and Data's quote was "12.75 billion gigawatts per...", making it nonsense. La Forge's statement about plasma being kicked up into the TW range is neither inherently flawed, like Data's, and was stated in the context of a briefing on the E-D's power generation cpabilities rather than being a panicked screech like Harry's. This makes it a far more reliable source.

Thorin wrote:Regardless, we have a non ambigious figure of 12.75 billion gigawatts. When put in conjunction with all the other facts, Data wasn't talking crap, as you so often like to presume.

Data's figure has wiggle room in that he added the word "per..." on the end of it before being interrupted. The "per" could have increased the power, for instance if he'd said "per nacelle".

Or it could have reduced it. For instance if he'd said "per cubic metre of reaction volume", and the reaction volume had been a cubic millimetre then the total power would be cut a billionfold.

Note that I don't comment on how likely this sort of thing is! But the fact is, he did say "per", so there is a little ambiguity there. Truthfully, knowing Trek writers as we do, I just know he was about to say "per second". They mix power and energy up all the time.

Anyway, even disregarding that completely we know for a fact that Voyager had 5,000 TW running through but one conduit in "Revulsion", so Geordi's "Terawatt range" can only really be seen as a very generalised off the cuff thing, not a precise number.

Either that or we have to assume that warp core output went up manyfold between 2368 and 2374. I'm game for that!

Captain Seafort wrote:We went over it and, as I recall, concluded that output was likely somewhere in the TW range, disregarding the Voyager and Data's quotes because the former was Harry Kim warning off Seven (and therefore may well have misspoken) and Data's quote was "12.75 billion gigawatts per...", making it nonsense. La Forge's statement about plasma being kicked up into the TW range is neither inherently flawed, like Data's, and was stated in the context of a briefing on the E-D's power generation cpabilities rather than being a panicked screech like Harry's. This makes it a far more reliable source.

Trouble with that is, if Harry had got his numbers off by a thousandfold or so then he would have corrected himself. And if he didn't, then Seven of Nine would have. Seven was certainly NOT panicking, given that her response was a cool comment about how the exoskeleton on her arm could withstand it. It's not credible that she would not spot such a mistake and comment on it.

Whereas Geordi, whilst having a technical conversation, was being general - "terawatt range" is not a precise figure, more like an off the cuff comment.

We never concluded that it was in the TW range, when I finally came out with the comment about 'Enterprise's' 500 GW canon, and the point that one shot from that couldn't take down the E-D's shields, you stopped posting.

While the 'per' could have increased or reduced the power, as that's the only solid figure we've got we'd just assume it's something simple (as per Occam's Razor) like 'per anti-matter injector' or 'per reaction chamber'. It would surely though be in the same order of magnitude.

I don't doubt Geordie wasn't lying when he said the TW range, but the fact is he gave no precise number, and he was talking about generic plasma - perhaps a main 'line' or a minor EPS conduit. Which is not the total output of the warp core.

I'm sorry, but there is no contradictory proof to Data's hard figure of 12.75 billion gigawatts. Occam's Razor, and all that

GrahamKennedy wrote:Trouble with that is, if Harry had got his numbers off by a thousandfold or so then he would have corrected himself. And if he didn't, then Seven of Nine would have. Seven was certainly NOT panicking, given that her response was a cool comment about how the exoskeleton on her arm could withstand it. It's not credible that she would not spot such a mistake and comment on it.

Maybe she didn't consider correcting Harry worth the effort, maybe she simply didn't know the output of an Intrepid, maybe she considered it irrelevent on the grounds that "Borg adapt to everything". The point that Harry was in a far more panicked state of mind (and far less qualified to talk about starship power systems) than Geordi stands.

Whereas Geordi, whilst having a technical conversation, was being general - "terawatt range" is not a precise figure, more like an off the cuff comment.

I disagree - the statement is precise, in that it explains that the E-D's warp core produces somewhere between 1 and 999 TW. It simply isn't exact.

Trouble with that is, if Harry had got his numbers off by a thousandfold or so then he would have corrected himself. And if he didn't, then Seven of Nine would have.

Good point. One of the two would have been correct about it, and Harry, panicked state or not, tended to be kind of a Type A about his duties and the ship. (Well, maybe not as much as Seven, but still...)

I think the heart of the debate here... well, at least the real reason it's come up, is because Thorin suggested a warp core could be used to essentially replace power generation on Earth, and could fulfill all of our needs. Even taking the minimum figures acceptable to both parties, would that still be the case, or no? I have to admit I know exactly jack about any total global figures for power on Earth today.

(It is a very noble cause, btw, Thorin. Almost everyone else immediately mentioned either wealth or military applications.)

Thorin wrote:We never concluded that it was in the TW range, when I finally came out with the comment about 'Enterprise's' 500 GW canon, and the point that one shot from that couldn't take down the E-D's shields, you stopped posting.

The E-D's shields have been knocked out by 400 GW shots, although that was apparently KE, which they may be more vulnerable to for some reason. We also have the example from "Battle Lines" of a runabout being knocked out of orbit by a high MW/low GW weapon, suggesting that a GCS (a bit over 1000 times the volume) could be knocked out by a low TW weapon.

I'm sorry, but there is no contradictory proof to Data's hard figure of 12.75 billion gigawatts. Occam's Razor, and all that

The Razor requires we choose the simplest solution that fits all the data. Given that Data's is, canonically, an idiot (fouling up a simple area calculation in "Relics", for example), claiming he fouled up in "True Q" isn't without precedent.

Duskofdead wrote:I think the heart of the debate here... well, at least the real reason it's come up, is because Thorin suggested a warp core could be used to essentially replace power generation on Earth, and could fulfill all of our needs. Even taking the minimum figures acceptable to both parties, would that still be the case, or no? I have to admit I know exactly jack about any total global figures for power on Earth today.

It certainly has the potential to do so. Whether or not I'd want to be sat next to a GCS sneeze-and-it-explodes warp core is another matter. If one of those things blows up it would seriously mess up the local area.

Captain Seafort wrote:

Duskofdead wrote:I think the heart of the debate here... well, at least the real reason it's come up, is because Thorin suggested a warp core could be used to essentially replace power generation on Earth, and could fulfill all of our needs. Even taking the minimum figures acceptable to both parties, would that still be the case, or no? I have to admit I know exactly jack about any total global figures for power on Earth today.

It certainly has the potential to do so. Whether or not I'd want to be sat next to a GCS sneeze-and-it-explodes warp core is another matter. If one of those things blows up it would seriously mess up the local area.

We seemed to all come to a consensus in that thread about what would we do without warp cores? that it seems that the "riskiness" of a warp core seems warranted only as needed for warp propulsion. With stationary installations and probably planetary power generation, we almost unerringly see fusion generation and another common one is geothermal energy tapping. I wouldn't be surprised if solar energy is harvested quite commonly, as well. I would imagine they don't routinely "install" warp cores on planets at least nowhere near inhabited areas, due to the risk either by sabotage or accident. I believe in one episode of Voyager they were observing devastation from orbit brought about by antimatter experiments and the crew expressing shock that they were working with antimatter on the planet. Something like "they obviously didn't know how dangerous it is." I could be only vaguely remembering the episode but it left me with the impression that the more advanced powers don't tinker around with antimatter on planets; explosions in space at least wouldn't endanger anyone else.

I'm sure at any rate that Thorin is correct that such a system could solve a thousand problems overnight on Earth, from pollution to gas prices. (Imagine factories and what not no longer needing any power from gas-powered generators, and what that would do to the prices.) I think the biggest problem (besides maintenance/possibility of sabotage or accident) would be that whoever controlled it would have such a massive weight over the rest of the planet that others would probably feel threatened. You'd certainly have to keep it well hidden somehow to protect it from a strike, while at the same time far enough away from people that if it exploded it wouldn't wipe out your country. Would deep underground do it?

Captain Seafort wrote:Maybe she didn't consider correcting Harry worth the effort, maybe she simply didn't know the output of an Intrepid, maybe she considered it irrelevent on the grounds that "Borg adapt to everything". The point that Harry was in a far more panicked state of mind (and far less qualified to talk about starship power systems) than Geordi stands.

If it were Paris or even Janeway I could buy that, but not Seven of Nine. She's the next best thing to Data that Voyager has; utterly literal minded, precise and supremely knowledgeable, especially when it's only a few eps after her liberation from the Borg.

I disagree - the statement is precise, in that it explains that the E-D's warp core produces somewhere between 1 and 999 TW. It simply isn't exact.

It needn't be precise either. Geordi knows the power output of the E-D, if he wanted to there's no reason he couldn't have given an exact number. He's being vague. It's no different than me saying "Oh going to other planets is hard, they are millions of miles away"; even a knowledgeable person might well say that despite the fact that planets can actually be billions of miles away.

If it were Paris or even Janeway I could buy that, but not Seven of Nine. She's the next best thing to Data that Voyager has; utterly literal minded, precise and supremely knowledgeable, especially when it's only a few eps after her liberation from the Borg.

Don't forget Mr. Vulcan.

Captain Seafort wrote:The E-D's shields have been knocked out by 400 GW shots, although that was apparently KE, which they may be more vulnerable to for some reason. We also have the example from "Battle Lines" of a runabout being knocked out of orbit by a high MW/low GW weapon, suggesting that a GCS (a bit over 1000 times the volume) could be knocked out by a low TW weapon.

Whatever the precise number was, Enterprise can fire shots of 500 GW (ish). The E-D wouldn't even feel that, thus the shot that did take down the E-D's shields clearly had more going on behind the scenes. The same would be said of the runabout. I doubt even Enterprise - a ship of 200 years earlier and yet can has a cannon with 100 times the power - could destroy a runabout.

The Razor requires we choose the simplest solution that fits all the data. Given that Data's is, canonically, an idiot (fouling up a simple area calculation in "Relics", for example), claiming he fouled up in "True Q" isn't without precedent.

It isn't, but in conjunction with a random conduit on Voyager carrying 5000 TW. While it may not necessarily fit all the Data at face value, simple explanations (such as LaForge being inprecise - which clearly he was) allow Data's figure to fit everything. And besides that, his figure is the most simple and 'down to earth'. It's straight to the point. The only way round it is to say he is talking rubish, which to me doesn't cut it.

Regarding the actual practicalities of having a warp core, the main one would be getting it round the world. There would be many other problems, like whether I'd want to give N Korea unlimited free energy, and the like, but overall and overtime, it would solve everything. Deep underground would definitely be the best way of storing it.

Thorin wrote:Whatever the precise number was, Enterprise can fire shots of 500 GW (ish). The E-D wouldn't even feel that, thus the shot that did take down the E-D's shields clearly had more going on behind the scenes.

You're working from the assumption that the NX-01 must be vastly less powerful than the E-D, which isn't necessarily the case. I agree that the E-D is stronger, but how much stronger is debateable.

It isn't, but in conjunction with a random conduit on Voyager carrying 5000 TW.

Using one iffy number to back up another isn't exactly sound logic. As I've already pointed out, Harry's number contradict's La Forge's. Given that Harry's an ensign a few years out of the Academy and La Forge was a Lt. Commander and Chief Engineer of the flagship, I know who's word I'd rely on. The respective situations on emphasise the difference.

Seven's presence, and her tendency for being exact, is certainly a factor to consider, but I don't consider the concept of her ignoring what to her would be such an obviously incorrect figure to be wildly implausable.

LaForge being inprecise - which clearly he was

He was being inexact, but not imprecise. The man isn't going to get the output of his ship's engines wrong by several orders of magnitude in the middle of an engineering discussion. If the core was capable of producing less than 10^12 watts he'd have said gigawatt range. If it were capable of 10^15 watts or greater he'd have said petawatt range. He said neither - he gave a number that gave a good idea of the ship' abilities without being excessively exact (or giving away classified information).

Captain Seafort wrote:You're working from the assumption that the NX-01 must be vastly less powerful than the E-D, which isn't necessarily the case. I agree that the E-D is stronger, but how much stronger is debateable.

It's canonically established that the ships in "Conundrum" are vastly weaker than the E-D, to the point that they are basically a joke, yet Riker describes them as being only "over a century" behind the E-D in weapons tech. By your own argument that means they cannot possibly be more than 199 years less advanced. In other words, about as powerful as something that you'd find around in the Enterprise era.

Seven's presence, and her tendency for being exact, is certainly a factor to consider, but I don't consider the concept of her ignoring what to her would be such an obviously incorrect figure to be wildly implausable.

It's certainly far more implausible than Geordi being off in a vague comment.

He was being inexact, but not imprecise. The man isn't going to get the output of his ship's engines wrong by several orders of magnitude in the middle of an engineering discussion.

How do you know this? You clearly believe it, to the exclusion of all else, but you give no reason for believing it other than that you think it is so.

Captain Seafort wrote:You're working from the assumption that the NX-01 must be vastly less powerful than the E-D, which isn't necessarily the case. I agree that the E-D is stronger, but how much stronger is debateable.

That is my assumption, yes. The fact is no 24th century ship bar the Borg has been able to reduce the shields of the E-D in 1 shot apart from that 500 GW one, which is also what Enterprise can do.

Using one iffy number to back up another isn't exactly sound logic. As I've already pointed out, Harry's number contradict's La Forge's. Given that Harry's an ensign a few years out of the Academy and La Forge was a Lt. Commander and Chief Engineer of the flagship, I know who's word I'd rely on. The respective situations on emphasise the difference.

Seven's presence, and her tendency for being exact, is certainly a factor to consider, but I don't consider the concept of her ignoring what to her would be such an obviously incorrect figure to be wildly implausable.

I do consider it to be wild implausable. Harry's number does not contradict La Forge's - La Forge says it was in the Terawatt range. That means anything above 1 terawatt.

He was being inexact, but not imprecise. The man isn't going to get the output of his ship's engines wrong by several orders of magnitude in the middle of an engineering discussion. If the core was capable of producing less than 10^12 watts he'd have said gigawatt range. If it were capable of 10^15 watts or greater he'd have said petawatt range. He said neither - he gave a number that gave a good idea of the ship' abilities without being excessively exact (or giving away classified information).

He wasn't talking about the core's output for one, he was talking about the plasma around it. We also don't know what aspect of the plasma he was talking about - its temperature, its current*voltage, how much mass-energy was passing through a certain point...

You say that La Forge isn't going to be off by so much, when Data - someone who is vastly more intelligent - is off by an order of magnitude with regards to the Dyson Sphere. Either way - if you decide that crew members are clots, then it is perfectly plausable for Geordie to have being wrong or very inprecise - or if you decide that the crew are on the whole correct, then Data was correct in what he said as was La Forge, just that La Forge wasn't being precise and wasn't talking about total output, just a bit of plasma.