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Omg you've turned to such a dodger...

Rochey pointed out that a ship of greater mass is superior... You said it wasn't. So prove it.

Actually, I am not required to prove a negative. Rochey made the positive claim, therefore he must provide proof.

And even then, I have provided proof.
Two ships of less mass than the Galaxy are faster than it. It doesn't matter what ships they are. Because Rochey made a blanket statement, one instance that differs is enough.

Errrrrrrrrrrrrr, wrong.

Ships in Trek have been shown to increase speed, power and all other goodies by increased size. You pointed out two purpose builts ships that defied that then said it held true. Since there are dozens of classes that prove otherwise. You have to support your statement.

That and Rochey already proved his point which I'm guessing is why you've yet to prove anything against it...

I think it's pretty obvious that a "smaller ships must be slower" argument doesn't really work. Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't.

So... problem solved.

Tsukiyumi wrote:"smaller ships must be slower"

I don't think anyone said this on either side... so umm, what are you talking about?

Deepcrush wrote:Errrrrrrrrrrrrr, wrong.

Ships in Trek have been shown to increase speed, power and all other goodies by increased size. You pointed out two purpose builts ships that defied that then said it held true. Since there are dozens of classes that prove otherwise. You have to support your statement.

That and Rochey already proved his point which I'm guessing is why you've yet to prove anything against it...

Rochey said that it was canon fact that bigger = faster. However, since just one smaller yet faster ship exists, that means it is not a fact.
He hasn't proven anything. He provided one example of smaller = slower. An example is not proof. It is only an example.

Since there are dozens of classes that prove otherwise.

Give me canon numbers that show every ship smaller than a Galaxy being slower, and I'll gladly concede.

I don't think anyone said this on either side... so umm, what are you talking about?

If bigger = faster, smaller = slower.

Rochey wrote:
It is canonical fact that in Trek the bigger a ship is, the stronger and faster (FTL-wise) it is. As such, a group of smaller ships can not stand up to a battleship except in massively overwhelming numbers. Yes, some ships can take on larger vessels, most notably the Defiant class. Though that is due to having a technological advantage over their opponents in the field of weapons technology, and the fact that the vast majority of Trek ships are awfully designed in terms of combat.

Were a Defiant pitted against a hypothetical Federation battleship built purely for war (such as the Paladin class we brainstormed here), it would be torn apart with little difficulty.
Then there's also the fact that larger ships are faster at FTL speeds and than smaller ships and can remain on the frontlines for longer without having to return to a base to resupply. Thus giving a single battleship far greater strategic worth than an entire fleet of small ships.

Your right thr bigger ship is usually the stronger and ships in trek are generally not designed with combat in mind. But taking the smallest ship we see in trek in great detail (asside from shuttles or runabouts) the defieant, it was a powerful ship with high survivability and alot of firepower. i wasn't around for the paladin class discussion but since it wasn't in the show i'm going to put it asside. taking some of the battleships we se in trek if a flight of defiants went against them to the point where they were about equal in firepower i doubt it would survive. granded the defiants are going to take heavy fire

i'm not saying that comprising your entire fleet of similar ships is a good idea and i'm sure other smaller ships such as the sabre, nova, steamrunner, norway class ships would get a good beating and i doubt would come out on top. but some well designed attack craft such as defiants sould take it down. i mean, isnt this the whole idea of the multi-vector attack mode of the prometheus? in trek we see that ships generally have heavy wapons on fixed positions on the ships axis front and rear and primary wapons all around. meaning there is no way to focus the heavy weapons more than one ship. multiple smaller ships can dodge the heavy weapons and the primary weapons fire has to be split between them. and adain its never seen just howmany ships and a ship engauge before running out of power 3? 4? i mean that has to be a huge drain. heck we see just one defiant take down the regency, which is completely of the wall, but we see it happen on screen.

again i'm not saying a whole fleet of smaller ships is a good idea, however a group of smaller ships working together in a "wolfpack" could take down a bigge3r ship with sucsess. it also depends on what the smaller ship is and what the BB is. you can turn the numbers either way but everyone is saying the smaller ships will never win. i'm saying its possible to overwhelm the larger ship with minimall loss in the flotilla of smaller ships

Kevsha wrote:Your right thr bigger ship is usually the stronger and ships in trek are generally not designed with combat in mind. But taking the smallest ship we see in trek in great detail (asside from shuttles or runabouts) the defieant, it was a powerful ship with high survivability and alot of firepower. i wasn't around for the paladin class discussion but since it wasn't in the show i'm going to put it asside. taking some of the battleships we se in trek if a flight of defiants went against them to the point where they were about equal in firepower i doubt it would survive. granded the defiants are going to take heavy fire

Again, you're missing the point. It's not Defiant vs. GCS or Soveregein. It's Defiant vs. GCS SIZED ship built in the same manner as the Defiant. All guns, armor, and pissed off attitude. No one is going to dispute that a GCS would get eaten alive buy a pack of Defiants, but that's also not what anyone is talking about.

but some well designed attack craft such as defiants sould take it down. i mean, isnt this the whole idea of the multi-vector attack mode of the prometheus?

Actually, the whole idea of MVAM with the Prommie is, "OMGWTF That's awesome WOW! It PWNED THEM!!!1!!"

in trek we see that ships generally have heavy wapons on fixed positions on the ships axis front and rear and primary wapons all around. meaning there is no way to focus the heavy weapons more than one ship.

Did you miss the part a while ago where I pointed out that torpedoes are not fixed weapons? The torpedoes are guided and can be fired off axis?

multiple smaller ships can dodge the heavy weapons and the primary weapons fire has to be split between them.

Except there's no evidence that smaller ships can dodge fire. In fact they seem to take as many hits as the big boys. Also, the fire doesn't have to be split. In fact only an idiot would split it. You focus as much fire as you can on one ship, blow it away, and move to the next.

and adain its never seen just howmany ships and a ship engauge before running out of power 3? 4? i mean that has to be a huge drain.

Because logically if you're going to give a ship X number of phaser arrays you might be intelligent enough to give it a big enough power source to use them all.

heck we see just one defiant take down the regency, which is completely of the wall, but we see it happen on screen.

Mirror universe, not applicable.

again i'm not saying a whole fleet of smaller ships is a good idea, however a group of smaller ships working together in a "wolfpack" could take down a bigge3r ship with sucsess. it also depends on what the smaller ship is and what the BB is. you can turn the numbers either way but everyone is saying the smaller ships will never win. i'm saying its possible to overwhelm the larger ship with minimall loss in the flotilla of smaller ships

No, it's not. If you devote equal resources to building your smaller ships versus a BB the BB will at the very least gut your formation of little ships. The only way to take down a BB with smaller ships in Trek is to absolutely swarm it with them. In the end the only way to acheive minimal losses is to toss many more times the BB's resources at it. The smaller ships can win, if they take a great number of them, far exceeding the BB's resources, and/or are willing to take the loss of quite a few ships to do it.

I've gamed this very scenario a LOT. Guess what, the small swarm gets it ass handed to it 9 times out of 10 until they start to bring a ridiculous number of units to the fight.

Tyyr wrote: Actually, the whole idea of MVAM with the Prommie is, "OMGWTF That's awesome WOW! It PWNED THEM!!!1!!"

while thats probably a very accurate OOU explanation I was thinking more of IU. unsless..... i can picture the conversation at starfleet R&D

Engineer 1: OMG wut if tesh ship culd leik split into 3 parts!!!
Engineer 2: WTF that wuld b s0 kewl!!!
Engineer 1: LOL we r so going to PWNZORS teh borgz!!!
Engineer 2: Teh borgz are teh sux0rz
Romulans: Hay guyz! im in ur base, steelin ur shipz!!
Engineer 1&2: Oh noezzzzz!!!!!
Romulans: PWND!!!!

Kevsha wrote:

Tyyr wrote: Actually, the whole idea of MVAM with the Prommie is, "OMGWTF That's awesome WOW! It PWNED THEM!!!1!!"

while thats probably a very accurate OOU explanation I was thinking more of IU. unsless..... i can picture the conversation at starfleet R&D

Engineer 1: OMG wut if tesh ship culd leik split into 3 parts!!!
Engineer 2: WTF that wuld b s0 kewl!!!
Engineer 1: LOL we r so going to PWNZORS teh borgz!!!
Engineer 2: Teh borgz are teh sux0rz
Romulans: Hay guyz! im in ur base, steelin ur shipz!!
Engineer 1&2: Oh noezzzzz!!!!!
Romulans: PWND!!!!

In universe it might make some sense as an ambush type ship, but that makes it kind of a one trick pony. Once someone sees it do its trick its pretty much over. I don't think we want this to degenerate into a Prommie discussion though.

Deepcrush wrote:Errrrrrrrrrrrrr, wrong.

Ships in Trek have been shown to increase speed, power and all other goodies by increased size. You pointed out two purpose builts ships that defied that then said it held true. Since there are dozens of classes that prove otherwise. You have to support your statement.

That and Rochey already proved his point which I'm guessing is why you've yet to prove anything against it...

This is not the case for speed. Voyager was faster than the Galaxy class and so was Prometheus, both of them were a lot smaller than a Galaxy glass.

Aye, but the Prommie is hardly a good example (given that it's an experimental vessel with four nacelles and two warp cores) and the Intrepid class seems to be a fair bit newer than the GCS and also has funky drives.

Rochey wrote:Aye, but the Prommie is hardly a good example (given that it's an experimental vessel with four nacelles and two warp cores) and the Intrepid class seems to be a fair bit newer than the GCS and also has funky drives.

But the tech level was not brought into the question, it was simply that larger tends to be faster, which is simply not the case.

IanKennedy wrote:

Rochey wrote:Aye, but the Prommie is hardly a good example (given that it's an experimental vessel with four nacelles and two warp cores) and the Intrepid class seems to be a fair bit newer than the GCS and also has funky drives.

But the tech level was not brought into the question, it was simply that larger tends to be faster, which is simply not the case.

Actually, the larger ships do TEND to be faster. Just because we have two small ships that are speed racers doesn't change the GENERAL fact that bigger ships move faster. There is a difference between claiming that a EVERY ship can warp faster than EVERY ship that is smaller than itself, and saying that when we look at all ships, there is a trend towards the larger ones being faster.