Sovereign class

[Blackstar the Chakat]

First of all those country's kids can't afford guns. And just about every guy I knew and still know, knows how to use a gun. If you walk down Locust street Milwaukee without a weapon you're either brave or stupid, and most of the time it's stupidity.

Starfleet is an exploration and defence force. Defence forces only fight when they're defending their country. Well, also self-defence and stuff, but the point is that they aren't a dedicated military force. We know Starfleet has been around since the 22nd century and I don't recall one time when they were the attackers in a war.

[Captain Seafort]

First of all those country's kids can't afford guns. And just about every guy I knew and still know, knows how to use a gun. If you walk down Locust street Milwaukee without a weapon you're either brave or stupid, and most of the time it's stupidity.

What exactly are the local police doing?

Starfleet is an exploration and defence force. Defence forces only fight when they're defending their country. Well, also self-defence and stuff, but the point is that they aren't a dedicated military force. We know Starfleet has been around since the 22nd century and I don't recall one time when they were the attackers in a war.

The fact that they drop the exploration angle and come running when there's a war to be fought shows what Starfleet's primary role is. As for the "aren't the attackers" bit, what's that got to do with whether they're a military force or not?

[Thorin]

The fact that they drop the exploration angle and come running when there's a war to be fought

At which point all civilians are offloaded.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Milwaukee cops? Um... lets see, several are suspended for beating a black guy into a bloodying pulp, several others are suspended for other reasons, The rest are usually patrolling safer streets where they don't get shot.

Anyway a true military is always armed and ready. Starfleet is a defense force. The only time they acted like a real military was during the war. Outside of the war how often were they sent into battle, or even in a war game? There is a very big difference between a military and a defence force. A military can be deployed into any battle situation for any reason. A defense force is only called on for defending their country, winning a war if necessary, but they can't be thrown into a battle for no reason. Do you see a military exploring in the name of science?

[Captain Seafort]

Anyway a true military is always armed and ready. Starfleet is a defense force. The only time they acted like a real military was during the war. Outside of the war how often were they sent into battle, or even in a war game? There is a very big difference between a military and a defence force. A military can be deployed into any battle situation for any reason. A defense force is only called on for defending their country, winning a war if necessary, but they can't be thrown into a battle for no reason.

Semantics. The term "Defence Forces" is a purely political label - the Irish and Japanese militaries use it, but that doesn't change the fact that they are military. What a country decides to call its military does not change its primary role - to defend that country. Any other uses it might be put to, be that exploration or the pursuit of universal conquest are purely secondary.

Do you see a military exploring in the name of science?

Yes - the Royal Navy in the 18th and 19th centuries frequently made warships available for scientific expeditions, and even funded several of them.

[Aaron]

Yes - the Royal Navy in the 18th and 19th centuries frequently made warships available for scientific expeditions, and even funded several of them.

They still do, alot of seafloor mapping is done by vessels flying the Royal Navy Ensign or under the flag of the US Navy research vessels.

[Granitehewer]

same with the russian batlic and pacific fleets, JMSDF too, infact alot of militaries are involved in cartography,topography etc

[Minnsky]

most aircraft advancements were done for war, same with the first basic Rockets. i have only read the past 4posts but im reminded of ST2 didn't Kirks son have this convo with his mom?

[Blackstar the Chakat]

That's mostly just mapping isn't it? And they're doing it for military reasons. Starfleet does it for science. And Starfleet is hardly a military. No drills, no war games and ships that are too lightly armed. They're more like minutemen that go full soldier during war. That really isn't a true military force.

[Captain Seafort]

That's mostly just mapping isn't it? And they're doing it for military reasons. Starfleet does it for science.

Starfleet's exploration expands the Federation's potential resource base, and HMS Beagal's expedition to the Galapagos Islands was a purely scientific expedition.

And Starfleet is hardly a military. No drills, no war games and ships that are too lightly armed. They're more like minutemen that go full soldier during war. That really isn't a true military force.

When the Federation's various wars break out it's Starfleet that goes and fights them, making them the Feds military. The fact that your average Somali warlord has better trained and better equipped men at his disposal does not change this.

[Sionnach Glic]

And Rochey, what do you mean, "if he's twenty"? Most kids know how to use a gun by age ten.

So? I also know how to use a gun. Does this mean I could act competently in a military enviroment without panicing? No, and I'm a lot older and more mature than a ten year old.

Knowing how to use a gun =/= knowing how to act in a dangerous situation.

Oh and for what feels like the hundredth time I've said this, THESE ARE NOT WARSHIPS AND STARFLEET ISN'T A MILITARY!

Do they engage in warfare? Yes.
Do they combat starships of a hostile alien power? Yes.
Are they heavily armed? Yes.
Do they engage in military operations? Yes.
Do they protect Federation worlds? Yes.
Do they protect Fedration stations? Yes.
Do they protect other Federation assets? Yes.
Do they patrol borders with hostile powers? Yes.

How the hell could you look at that list, and not conclude that Starfleet is a military organisation?
A tip for you; modern militaries engage in all of these actions.

We know Starfleet has been around since the 22nd century and I don't recall one time when they were the attackers in a war.

So? Ireland has never been in a war. Does that mean our 'army' is not, in fact, and army?

And just about every guy I knew and still know, knows how to use a gun.

So? If you dropped them in the middle of Baghdad, would they be able to get out of there alive? Nope.

At which point all civilians are offloaded.

So? This is no use if you are attacked without warning. (wars are rarely anounced in advance)
Also, having to unload your civilians means that any response will take longer than it would otherwise.

Anyway a true military is always armed and ready.

Exactly. That's why Starfleet's heavily armed ships fall under 'warship'.

Outside of the war how often were they sent into battle, or even in a war game?

Nearly every encounter with the Romulans or Klingons inside Federation space.
And asking 'when have they gone into battle, outside of war' is a bit pointless. Battles tend to require a war to take place.

A military can be deployed into any battle situation for any reason. A defense force is only called on for defending their country, winning a war if necessary, but they can't be thrown into a battle for no reason.

This is all pointless semantics. There is zero difference between these two, other than that one sounds slightly less agresive.
We call our military the Irish Defence Force, does that change the fact that it is a military?

Do you see a military exploring in the name of science?

So, if I took a nuclear submarine, and got it to map the sea floor, would you conclude, despite its armament, that it is not a military vessel?

[Granitehewer]

The IDF and several governmental and private sector institutions, completed a thorough mapping of the Sinai desert, they even contributed to international journals and the magnificent national geographic, of course the data was used to great effect during the various wars and skirmishes with the egyptians.
Starfleet may chart new systems, establish relations with new races and investigate various anomalies, but despite the surface motives of employing and enjoying science for the sake of science and mankind/alienkind, and establishing contacts with new cultures to better learn and tolerate life, this could also be primarily for military value and advantage.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

That list could still apply to a mercenary aka security firms as well.

I don't think a bunch of drunks with guns counts as an army. In the US we call that hunting season. And why do you guys even have an army? You negotiate with your terrorists.

And their ships are far from being heavily armed. Relativly speaking of coarse. And if there is a war then you wouldn't have civilians on board so then you have no problem there.

So, just what idiot would let you have a sub, much less a nuke. Military subs usually aren't used for mapping during military operations. Military ships can be used for civilian purposes, and civilian ships can be used for military purposes. But if a civie ship is used by military personel does that make it a military boat?

[Thorin]

At which point all civilians are offloaded.

So? This is no use if you are attacked without warning. (wars are rarely anounced in advance)

And it would neither matter if civilians were placed on a purpose built science ship or a powerful Galaxy class if they are attacked without warning.

[Mikey]

And it would neither matter if civilians were placed on a purpose built science ship or a powerful Galaxy class if they are attacked without warning.

True - however, those purpose-built science ships are not going to be ordered into battle, OR into those otherwise-hazardous scenarios - into which Starfleet vessels are ordered regularly.