www.ditl.org

Well, for the record, I liked Kirk. While he was cheuvenistic, he was far less so than he could have gotten away with (never did he call any woman in the show that I can remember, honey, baby, sweetie, or anything but my their rank, title, or name (implying respect). As I recall in Turnabout Intruder, wasn't it mentioned that for whatever reason women COULDN'T command a Starship? So his comment about about her life being as full as any woman's was valid and innocent considering the overall situation (that she went insane because she wanted to command a starship and couldn't because of gender).
Keep in mind though that in the opening monolouge, Kirk says "...to boldy go where no MAN has gone before". That didn't mean any slight to women.

But I think serving with Kirk would have been a real adventure. To quote Janeway "space was alot bigger then". For me, Archer, while likable, didn't command the loyalty or respect of James T. Kirk. I too would love to have ridden shotgun for one of his missions.

But why cant females captain starships, Deriving from the point?

Reliant121 wrote:But why cant females captain starships, Deriving from the point?

It was bunk, we saw a female starship captain in ST:IV.

A black female at that. Which is one of the reasons i love ST IV.

Reliant121 wrote:Katefan. i'm 13. i'm entitled to a little bit of immaturity. Besides, i know some who would use far worse.

You've got me there. Point conceded.

meh. i think you got the bigger point

but thanks all the same.

Cpl Kendall wrote:

Reliant121 wrote:But why cant females captain starships, Deriving from the point?

It was bunk, we saw a female starship captain in ST:IV.

Which took place 10 to 15 years after the episode in question. Times change. Makes less sense if you remember that Captain Erica Hernandez commanded the NX 02 USS Columbia. So why have women Captains then 100 years later not allow them to command, then change your mind again sometime later. Doesn't make sense, but there it is.

Mark, do you have the quote in question about women not being able to command ships handy? I don't recall it.

Reliant121 wrote:But why cant females captain starships, Deriving from the point?

Honestly, there is no excuse whatsoever for that line. Roddenberry, who championed the cause of women's equality to men by making a female first officer in the first pilot, wrote that episode. It could be argued that he was so focused on other projects it got re-written by someone else (John Delancy once called it "pissing on the script". I saw him at the Chicago Comic Con years back and his Q&A was very informative. His explanation for his involvement with Voyager? "It's my job, I got paid". Not in those words, but his reasoning strikes a chord in anyone who works for a living) without his knowledge, but who can say now? I don't think Roddenberry was chauvenistic; he was an adulterous pig, but that doesn't necessarily make a man a chauvenist.

Other than that line, I love that episode. I agree with Graham when he points out how well Shatner and Sandra Smith play one another's roles, and I liked Scotty's line: "It may not be scientific, but if Mr. Spock thinks it happens then it must be logical." and Scotty willingly goes along with a mutiny based on Spock's say-so, showing the amount of respect he has for the man.

Rochey wrote:Mark, do you have the quote in question about women not being able to command ships handy? I don't recall it.

Not handy, but Janice Lester said it, for what it's worth.

Mark wrote:
Which took place 10 to 15 years after the episode in question. Times change. Makes less sense if you remember that Captain Erica Hernandez commanded the NX 02 USS Columbia. So why have women Captains then 100 years later not allow them to command, then change your mind again sometime later. Doesn't make sense, but there it is.

So we have one quote and at least two instances of female Captains before Janeway? Sounds like the person in question misspoke, lied or was simply in error.

Cpl Kendall wrote:

Mark wrote:
Which took place 10 to 15 years after the episode in question. Times change. Makes less sense if you remember that Captain Erica Hernandez commanded the NX 02 USS Columbia. So why have women Captains then 100 years later not allow them to command, then change your mind again sometime later. Doesn't make sense, but there it is.

So we have one quote and at least two instances of female Captains before Janeway? Sounds like the person in question misspoke, lied or was simply in error.

Or, for some reason, women WERE banned from Starship Command for a few years for some reason. (Although I can't imagine what that reason was, aside from a VERY sexist bunch of Admirals and\or Council members) But then, that could also explain the mini-skirts as well, I suppose.

The exact phrase was "your world of starship captains doesn't admit women". While this could be seen as a ban on female commanding officers I think it's more likely, given the evidence of Enterprise and ST4, that it refers to starship captains usually being single, repeating the common theme in TOS of Kirk being "married" to the Enterprise.

Captain Seafort wrote:The exact phrase was "your world of starship captains doesn't admit women". While this could be seen as a ban on female commanding officers I think it's more likely, given the evidence of Enterprise and ST4, that it refers to starship captains usually being single, repeating the common theme in TOS of Kirk being "married" to the Enterprise.

I see your point. It is rather ambigious, isn't it. Reading it now, at this moment, I infer while not actually forbidden Starship Command, the then Starfleet Command was more like the proverbial good ol boys club, and was rather like a fraternity, where woman, while not exactly forbidden, where discouraged.

Of course, if I read it again tomorrow, it could mean something else to me all together

Mark wrote:
I see your point. It is rather ambigious, isn't it. Reading it now, at this moment, I infer while not actually forbidden Starship Command, the then Starfleet Command was more like the proverbial good ol boys club, and was rather like a fraternity, where woman, while not exactly forbidden, where discouraged.

Of course, if I read it again tomorrow, it could mean something else to me all together

Now I have an idea for a fanfic showing us how Janeway got her command...