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ChakatBlackstar wrote:Why wouldn't the civilians be able to return to their quarters by themselves? And having designated areas that civilians aren't supposed to go will keep the average person out of trouble. I'm sure the civilians go though some sort of basic training or drills for what to do during red alerts. Going to 'safe' areas like their quarters, Ten-forward, the school, ect.

And you can guarantee that in emergencies they will do exactly what they're meant to do without flapping, getting lost, parents going looking for their children, pestering every crew member they see demanding to know what's going on, and deciding not to do as they're told because they know better? Drills would help, but you'd still need to assign crew to control all of the inevitable hassle mentioned above. And that still doesn't cahnge the fact that it would be far simpler and safer not to have them aboard in the first place.

You would need to assign some crew from the many spare you have thanks to shift over lap.

Captain Seafort wrote:

ChakatBlackstar wrote:Why wouldn't the civilians be able to return to their quarters by themselves? And having designated areas that civilians aren't supposed to go will keep the average person out of trouble. I'm sure the civilians go though some sort of basic training or drills for what to do during red alerts. Going to 'safe' areas like their quarters, Ten-forward, the school, ect.

And you can guarantee that in emergencies they will do exactly what they're meant to do without flapping, getting lost, parents going looking for their children, pestering every crew member they see demanding to know what's going on, and deciding not to do as they're told because they know better? Drills would help, but you'd still need to assign crew to control all of the inevitable hassle mentioned above. And that still doesn't cahnge the fact that it would be far simpler and safer not to have them aboard in the first place.

Well, to put it simply, yes. They either follow the rules or they stay behind. And 'military' (starfleet isn't a true military) families are usually better disciplined then civilian families.

They either follow the rules or they stay behind.

So, you leave them wandering around, getting in the way of the crew who are attempting to keep the ship in one piece?
Just one more reason to the many already established that shows why civilians shoudln't be on ships.

Rochey wrote:

They either follow the rules or they stay behind.

So, you leave them wandering around, getting in the way of the crew who are attempting to keep the ship in one piece?
Just one more reason to the many already established that shows why civilians shoudln't be on ships.

No, what I'm saying is they need to follow the rules and stay out of the way or they aren't allowed on the ship.

ChakatBlackstar wrote:No, what I'm saying is they need to follow the rules and stay out of the way or they aren't allowed on the ship.

First rule of everything - no plan survives contact with the enemy. People might have the best of intentions, and act perfectly reasonably during drills, but once things go pear shaped it's extremely likely that all the things I described would happen. The only way to prevent it is to bad civilians from the ship, which brings us back to the original argument.

I don't mind the civ's being on a starship, but they should never be aloud onboard combat ships. Science ships are fine. So are the cargo and transport ships. But if your spouse is serving on board a system patrol cruiser then you should just live on the local starbase.

Captain Seafort wrote:

ChakatBlackstar wrote:No, what I'm saying is they need to follow the rules and stay out of the way or they aren't allowed on the ship.

First rule of everything - no plan survives contact with the enemy. People might have the best of intentions, and act perfectly reasonably during drills, but once things go pear shaped it's extremely likely that all the things I described would happen. The only way to prevent it is to bad civilians from the ship, which brings us back to the original argument.

Ever hang out with a military family? They are way more disciplined then any civilian family. If the father gave his kid a specific order that kid would do it. For example, should a situation present itself were the parent was defending the base they were at and told his son to take care of his siblings that son would do so, even if his father died. He'd defend those kids until he died or until someone he trusted before the order was given told him to stand down.

The inherent risks of being on a starship, cargo,science,scout etc, is the inherent unpredictability of the galaxy, from aliens to anomalies, keeping families, within reach, say on a nicely defended station, or planet, would surely be sensible

Granitehewer wrote:The inherent risks of being on a starship, cargo,science,scout etc, is the inherent unpredictability of the galaxy, from aliens to anomalies, keeping families, within reach, say on a nicely defended station, or planet, would surely be sensible

In a universe where the Breen could strike Starfleet HQ I don't think there is anywhere that could ever be safe. Besides, how often do we see civilians die anyway? Doesn't seem they're in mortal danger. Officers always seem to die rather then joe shmoe.

True, but in battle sequences, the emphasis is always on the crew, rather than the humble civvies, so looking at trek, may not provide the strongest case, for having civilians onboard, as we simply might not be witnesses to their suffering

In a universe where the Breen could strike Starfleet HQ I don't think there is anywhere that could ever be safe.

Hey, thats a great idea! Because the enemy can hit our civilians when they're on a planet, we should put them on starships going straight into danger!

The US has the ability to kill citizens of the UK, does that mean the UK should start putting civilians on its warships?

Besides, how often do we see civilians die anyway? Doesn't seem they're in mortal danger. Officers always seem to die rather then joe shmoe.

We don't see them die because the emphasis is always on the bridge or engineering. We hardly ever see average Joe running down a corridor during combat, which is why we never see anyone die during a battle.

Ever hang out with a military family? They are way more disciplined then any civilian family. If the father gave his kid a specific order that kid would do it. For example, should a situation present itself were the parent was defending the base they were at and told his son to take care of his siblings that son would do so, even if his father died. He'd defend those kids until he died or until someone he trusted before the order was given told him to stand down.

Er, maybe if his son was about twenty. If it was anyone else they'd probably just try and leg it with the family, putting them in danger.
You're aplying how the family works in a peacefull, safe, enviroment, and then saying they would do the same when their lives are in danger. Things simply don't work that way. Even trained soldiers are known to hesitate or run away. How can you possibly expect some kid to follow orders with military precision?

ChakatBlackstar wrote:Ever hang out with a military family?

Yes. From the moment I was born.

They are way more disciplined then any civilian family. If the father gave his kid a specific order that kid would do it. For example, should a situation present itself were the parent was defending the base they were at and told his son to take care of his siblings that son would do so, even if his father died. He'd defend those kids until he died or until someone he trusted before the order was given told him to stand down.

Your point being what? That military families are somehow immune from fear, and confusion, and getting lost? Rot. While repeated drills might reduce the problem from the worst case scenario of "hundreds of confused, terrified, civilians running around screaming", it doesn't change the fact that their presence adds an extra complication into an already complicated situation. Sure, some of them will be as disciplined as your example. Others will be running around like headless chickens getting in the way. It depends on the individuals involved, and the best solution is, rather than add the extra complication, don't have them on starships.

Don't a lot of bases have housing on base were a lot of people have their civilian family living. How is this any different? So the base can move, so what? And if trained soldiers run why can't a civilian follow orders?

And Rochey, what do you mean, "if he's twenty"? Most kids know how to use a gun by age ten.

Oh and for what feels like the hundredth time I've said this, THESE ARE NOT WARSHIPS AND STARFLEET ISN'T A MILITARY!

ChakatBlackstar wrote:Don't a lot of bases have housing on base were a lot of people have their civilian family living. How is this any different? So the base can move, so what? And if trained soldiers run why can't a civilian follow orders?

Bases aren't sent looking for trouble. Starships are. If trained soldiers run then the chaces are that civilians will run a damn sight sooner.

And Rochey, what do you mean, "if he's twenty"? Most kids know how to use a gun by age ten.

"Most" kids know how to fire a weapon by ten? Where is this? Iraq? Somalia?

Oh and for what feels like the hundredth time I've said this, THESE ARE NOT WARSHIPS AND STARFLEET ISN'T A MILITARY!

Which is why they played no part in the Dominion War.