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Teaos wrote:I believe the saying is "clear and present danger" SF seemed to be more than up to the task of fighting off any reasonable threat to it. The Dominion was not a resonable threat since the Federation hadnt heard about them and only had a couple of years to prepare.

They should have had a standing military already available to base their expansion on, given the presence of the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians and Breen - all of which were either powerful uncertain or definate threats to the Federation.

But the Federation expands slowly like a baloon with the edges creeping out.

The Star Fleet we see in DS9 looked more than capable of kicking anyone of the other major powers arse and could maybe even take down an alliance of them.

You say they need a standing military to support their expansion? With their boarders slowly creeping out what could they possibly hit that would require much more military might than they already have. I doubt another major power can exist anywhere even remotly close with out the Federation having heard of it already and even if they do find someone its outter boarders are years of travel away from the core. More than enough time to prepare for anything that they may find.

Teaos wrote:The Star Fleet we see in DS9 looked more than capable of kicking anyone of the other major powers arse and could maybe even take down an alliance of them.

You mean the same Starfleet that a few years earlier had been terrified of a resumed Cardassian War to the extent that they sold their own people down the river to avoid it? The Starfleet that lost a twenty-year war with the Klingons in an alternate timeline? The Starfleet that a long-serving and experience intelligence officer thought would have a significant struggle on it's hands against the Romulans after the war? They're strong, but they aren't even close to the modern US military in comparison to the other powers.

You say they need a standing military to support their expansion?

No, I'm saying they need a strong military to guard against the powerful militaries sitting on their doorstep.

With their boarders slowly creeping out what could they possibly hit that would require much more military might than they already have.

A Romulan-Klingon alliance would be the most obvious threat (which came dangerously close less than a decade earlier). Even the Romulans on their own would be a threat in the post-war period.

I doubt another major power can exist anywhere even remotly close with out the Federation having heard of it already and even if they do find someone its outter boarders are years of travel away from the core. More than enough time to prepare for anything that they may find.

The Federation unkowingly blundered in to Gorn territory and set up a colony there. The Husnock (who had the firepower to slag a planet) were likewise with striking distance. The Ferengi have clearly been a major presence in the AQ for decades, if not centuries, but the Feds had nothing but half-truths and rumours before "The Last Outpost".

Teaos, no one here is arguing that the Federation couldn't beat, say, the Romulans or whoever else in a war. The point we're making is that they'd be taking massive losses needlessly. If their military was competantly organised and run, they'd only lose, say, one ship for every three ships that the "current" Starfleet would lose.
Basicaly, while Starfleet can beat any other power, they'd take unnecessarily heavy losses in doing so. The US could have beaten the Iraqi military just by sending in hordes of infantry. That doesn't mean it'd have been a smart move.

Seafort wrote:You mean the same Starfleet that a few years earlier had been terrified of a resumed Cardassian War to the extent that they sold their own people down the river to avoid it? The Starfleet that lost a twenty-year war with the Klingons in an alternate timeline? The Starfleet that a long-serving and experience intelligence officer thought would have a significant struggle on it's hands against the Romulans after the war? They're strong, but they aren't even close to the modern US military in comparison to the other powers.

I'm not talking about the SF of years past. The SF of DS9 times is obviously quite different, its learned its lesson from the Borg and Cardassians and has grown and become more proffesional.

No, I'm saying they need a strong military to guard against the powerful militaries sitting on their doorstep.

They have it.

A Romulan-Klingon alliance would be the most obvious threat (which came dangerously close less than a decade earlier). Even the Romulans on their own would be a threat in the post-war period.

The Post DS9 SF which is the one were are talking about is more than able to take anyone on comfortably and win.

The Federation unkowingly blundered in to Gorn territory and set up a colony there. The Husnock (who had the firepower to slag a planet) were likewise with striking distance. The Ferengi have clearly been a major presence in the AQ for decades, if not centuries, but the Feds had nothing but half-truths and rumours before "The Last Outpost".

The Gorn came about hundreds of years ago when SF was still exploring local space. The Ferengi are not a major threat.

Teaos, no one here is arguing that the Federation couldn't beat, say, the Romulans or whoever else in a war. The point we're making is that they'd be taking massive losses needlessly. If their military was competantly organised and run, they'd only lose, say, one ship for every three ships that the "current" Starfleet would lose.
Basicaly, while Starfleet can beat any other power, they'd take unnecessarily heavy losses in doing so. The US could have beaten the Iraqi military just by sending in hordes of infantry. That doesn't mean it'd have been a smart move.

The cost of a standing military of the size you want would be huge, doubly so since they would then have to go build hundreds if not thousands more ships to do they exploration and science missions your military ships no longer can. For an organisation that tries to avoid war at all costs the cost is far to high.

If we are talking about a post DS9 SF then you're right that no one in the AQ can match them. Though, they do have a problem.

Like you said the UFP is growing. Population, territory and exploration have all expanded. The UFP 'needs' a standing army and navy. I for one don't think cost comes even close to being "Too Great". What happens the next time the UFP has to face someone like the Dominion, or even the Dominion itself? You should always prepare in peace what you need in war. I think the post Dominion War SF is much more open minded about its place in the Galaxy. They have a fleet of newer and more advanced warships (Defiant, Sov, Prommie, Akira, Uprated GCS/Nebs/Lakota). Where this does help them it doesn't make the win all. As Seafort said, you need troops. There's no reason for the UFP not to build a standing army. Its not like they have to pay for it, they don't use money inside the UFP.

I'll leave it there as everyone here knows my thoughts on SF.

Teaos wrote:I'm not talking about the SF of years past. The SF of DS9 times is obviously quite different, its learned its lesson from the Borg and Cardassians and has grown and become more proffesional.

Not by much - even late in the second year of the war they still hadn't developed anything resembling a sustained fire support weapon, mortar, or even widely deployed the FC phaser rifles. There's also Sloan's comment about the Feds and the Romulans being left to struggle for control of the quadrant post-war. How would it be a struggle if the Federation could easilly wipe the floor with the Romulans?

The Gorn came about hundreds of years ago when SF was still exploring local space. The Ferengi are not a major threat.

And the Husnock? They slagged a planet. As for the Ferengi, how could the Federation know they weren't a major threat, since they knew sod-all about them?

The cost of a standing military of the size you want would be huge, doubly so since they would then have to go build hundreds if not thousands more ships to do they exploration and science missions your military ships no longer can. For an organisation that tries to avoid war at all costs the cost is far to high.

Regardless of how high the cost of building such a fleet is, it would still be cheaper than the cost of a lost war. As for avoiding war at all costs, "please don't attack us because we're nice people" is a lot less convincing than "we don't want to fight, but if you attack us we'll kick the sh*t out of you".

The cost of a standing military of the size you want would be huge, doubly so since they would then have to go build hundreds if not thousands more ships to do they exploration and science missions your military ships no longer can.

Yes, creating a proper military force would cost lots. However, it would cost far less than losing and having to replace thousands of ships and their crews.

For an organisation that tries to avoid war at all costs the cost is far to high.

For an organisation that tries to avoid war at all costs they sure get into a fair few of them. When you're bordered by numerous hostile powers you can't aford not to have a strong standing military. As we saw in DS9, while you may still be able to win the war, the cost will be horrificaly high for no reason.

Seafort wrote:Not by much - even late in the second year of the war they still hadn't developed anything resembling a sustained fire support weapon, mortar, or even widely deployed the FC phaser rifles.

None of their enemies have them so thats a moot point.

There's also Sloan's comment about the Feds and the Romulans being left to struggle for control of the quadrant post-war. How would it be a struggle if the Federation could easilly wipe the floor with the Romulans?

The US has a struggle in Iraq at the moment, doesnt mean its not stronger.

As for the Ferengi, how could the Federation know they weren't a major threat, since they knew sod-all about them?

Cause while it is easy for small systems to go unnoticed empire that can challenge the Federation are a bit harder to miss.

Regardless of how high the cost of building such a fleet is, it would still be cheaper than the cost of a lost war. As for avoiding war at all costs, "please don't attack us because we're nice people" is a lot less convincing than "we don't want to fight, but if you attack us we'll kick the sh*t out of you".

The Klingons tried that second strategy during TOS. I believe it caused their empire to collapse, same with the USSR.

Rochey wrote:For an organisation that tries to avoid war at all costs they sure get into a fair few of them. When you're bordered by numerous hostile powers you can't aford not to have a strong standing military. As we saw in DS9, while you may still be able to win the war, the cost will be horrificaly high for no reason.

The Dominion war was impossible to forsee or plan for.

The Cardassian war was much like Vietnam, a police action and not all out.

The Borg arent really a war or forseeable.

The Dominion war was impossible to forsee or plan for.

The Cardassian war was much like Vietnam, a police action and not all out.

The Borg arent really a war or forseeable.

Yes? And? This doesn't change the fact that if Starfleet was competantly run it'd have suffered far less casualties in all those situations.

Yeah it might have suffered less. But it would cost more to run and may lower their science capability. And since none of those wars were even remotely forseeable it is not justified to spend so much of the military.

No war is forseeable. Your enemy isn't going to turn around and say "hey, we're thinking of invading next month, that okay with you?". They'll launch an attack at the moment you least expect it.
As for cost, it's already been pointed out that the cost of creating such a fleet is far less than the cost of having to replace thousands of ships and crews. When you're surrounded by hostile powers, like the Federation is, you need to focus on defence.

War is forseeable. America can forsee war with any of the nations on Earth. But if they started preparing for an alien invasion... well people would think them a little nuts.

That's in no way analogous. The Federation is bordered by hostile powers that could attack them at any moment in relative screcy. Creating a strong defence force is just common sense.

Teaos wrote:None of their enemies have them so thats a moot point.

It's not a moot point at all. You said that the UFP military was far more preofessional than it had been, and Seafort gave an example of why it still had lots of room for improvement.

Teaos wrote:I believe it caused their empire to collapse, same with the USSR.

When did the KE collapse? I think they're still around. If you're referring to the events at the beginning of TUC, you're conveniently forgetting about the part about Praxis blowing up.