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As I said I support freedom of religion. But the thing is a increasing number of people are taking rather hard line views on things like abortion and euthinasia and sexual freedoms. So no religious and non religious folks do not on average have the same moral codes.

Oh, come on...even the most ardent pro-choice person will admit that there's something 'distasteful' about abortion...but for them, rights trump morals, and so they basically ignore their morality in favor of the treasured 'freedom to do whatever the heck I want.' Kind of a funny position to take considering that for most of the history of Mankind, rights didn't exist, while morality is as old as humanity. But whatever...I am definitely a supporter of personal freedoms...its just that I think that there are some moral issues that should take precendence over them. Its hardly a revolutionary idea.

No it wouldnt. I doubt there are very many people at all in western civilisation who dont have at least a decent level of understanding of the major religions. Thus they are free to make their own decisions in life with out being mandated by other how to live.

Well, obviously I agree that people should make their own decisions about religion without being forced...and so does pretty much every single other religious person in the nation. Really, though, religion is way ahead of you on this...ever heard of free will? We have the God-given right to basically make our lives miserable...but does that really mean we should take advantage of that right?
But whatever...I'm not trying to 'convert' you or anything (and even if I was, I don't think I'd get very far with it ); I'm just trying to help you understand the religious point of view. Frankly, a good percentage of the people in the world are religious...and one way or the other, you're going to have to deal with that fact. The sooner you discover that not everyone is living in your little libertarian bubble-world, the better, as far as I'm concerned.

even the most ardent pro-choice person will admit that there's something 'distasteful' about abortion

Again I will have to disagree. I know many many people who dont find anything wrong with it. Maybe because I choose to be friends with people like me but there is a large group of people out there who agree.

Kind of a funny position to take considering that for most of the history of Mankind, rights didn't exist, while morality is as old as humanity.

Actually its only in the last 5000 years right have been eroded before that it was total personal freedom. Even in the last 5000 years it hasnt gotten really bad up until the last 1500.

I'm just trying to help you understand the religious point of view. Frankly, a good percentage of the people in the world are religious...and one way or the other, you're going to have to deal with that fact. The sooner you discover that not everyone is living in your little libertarian bubble-world, the better, as far as I'm concerned.

Oh I understand it. I also understand religion as I was raised in a very religious house.

Really, though, religion is way ahead of you on this...ever heard of free will?

The idea of religious people claiming to have free will is laughable. If you follow the teachings of the bible of the Koran you have to live by a very strict code of morals. God gave you free will. But only if you use it in the exact way he tells you to.

Teaos wrote:Again I will have to disagree. I know many many people who dont find anything wrong with it. Maybe because I choose to be friends with people like me but there is a large group of people out there who agree.

Come on - even if someone believes in freedom of choice, nobody's going around having as many abortions as they can. Peabody was simply saying that whatever your stance on abortion is, nobody would rather have one then, say, prevent the unwanted pregnancy in the first place.

Actually its only in the last 5000 years right have been eroded before that it was total personal freedom. Even in the last 5000 years it hasnt gotten really bad up until the last 1500.

Actually, in thos early days, rights were abundant - but only for the elite, the erudite, the wealthy, or the citizenry - which generally meant about 10% - 20% of the adult male population.

The idea of religious people claiming to have free will is laughable. If you follow the teachings of the bible of the Koran you have to live by a very strict code of morals. God gave you free will. But only if you use it in the exact way he tells you to.

The idea is that we have CHOSEN to live by a set of tenets, ideologies, and teachings. "A life of righteousness is its own reward." The teachings of any of the major religions, and most of the minor ones, are that the world will be better if you live a certain way. Is that certain way generally spelled out? Yes. Is it our choice to live in that way? Absolutely. Even the 17th and 18th century Christian sects which believed in predestination somehow induced poeple to WANT to live a certain way. In a very real way, Teaos, your atheism or agnosticism - you have never told us if you disdain the idea of G-d, or merely of organized religion - dictates your responses as much as my faith does mine. You DO act a certain way, because of the CHOICE you have made to believe, or not, as you will - the same as me.

Actually its only in the last 5000 years right have been eroded before that it was total personal freedom. Even in the last 5000 years it hasnt gotten really bad up until the last 1500.

Oh, please... I don't know where you're getting your information from, but the idea of 'rights' is a pretty recent idea. Not that I have anything against them, but this claim is just plain crazy. Can you show me any sources?

The idea of religious people claiming to have free will is laughable. If you follow the teachings of the bible of the Koran you have to live by a very strict code of morals. God gave you free will. But only if you use it in the exact way he tells you to.

I think you're kind of missing the point. The idea of religion is that we were created to live one way, to be moral creatures perfectly attuned to God's will, but at the same time, we were given free will, which led us to reject our true natures and God. And no, free will is not only for people that do exactly what God tells us to; this is exactly the Christian idea of Hell; in other words, free will makes heaven possible, but it also makes Hell possible. One of my favorite quotes expresses this very well; "There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'Thy will be done.'" So God has not only given us the right to do what we want, he has also given us the right to damn ourselves. If that's not freedom, I don't know what is.

That was very well said, Peabody, but I obviously come from a different perspective. Judaism was not at its outset a mystery religion, nor is there a Jewish conception of heaven or hell. As in the quote I mentioned - "A life of righteousness is its own reward" - we are not driven by the promise of reward or the threat of punishment. Rather, CHOOSING (there's that word again!) to live in a moral, righteous way makes the world a better place; and in the final analysis, Judaism teaches at its most basic that we have a far greater responsibility to our fellow man than to G-d Himself.

In other words, rather than the freedom to damn myself for eternity, or 99 years, or whatever the case may be, I have the freedom to do what is right and what will help make the world better. Or not. If I choose not to, then I have failed the ultimate goal of my faith, but either way my spirit returns to the Lord in an afterlife only referred to as Olam Ha'Ba - "The World to Come" - in which it ceases to be me in any event.

Mikey: I am actually quite familiar with Judaism (my father is a Jewish-Christian convert, and one of my grandfathers a practicing Jew), and so I know where you're coming from here. Still, the idea of a resurection of the dead is a pretty old one in Judaism... the Pharisees at the time of Jesus certainly believed in it, whereas the Sadducees (a rival faction) did not. Am I incorrect in assuming that the idea of such a resurrection is pretty well-founded in the Old Testament Scriptures?

In any event, the Christian approach to the afterlife is very well established in the New Testament...rather than a simple bodiless existence or dissolution of the soul, Christians believe in a physical Resurrection of the Dead, and a New Creation in which all the pains and sorrows of the old will be washed away, and we will once more live as we did in the Garden of Eden...at peace with God. One of my favorite books that describes the Christian conception of Heaven is The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis...this is also the place from which the passage I quoted in my last post comes from. It really is a fascinating book, and I think you'd find it quite interesting.

By the way, I've greatly enjoyed discussing this with you...

Well, there's Scripture and then there's Scripture. The Torah - the Pentateuch, or the Five Books of Moses - do not describe a day of resurrection, rapture, final judgement, or anything of the sort. At its roots, Judaism was NOT a messianic religion at all. During the Roman occupation, when study of the Torah was made a capital offense, a number of items were used - the Haftarah, which was the writings of the prophets and judges; and a number of texts of commentaries, interpretations, and ethics. It is in the writings of the prophets and judges that we first begin to look at the idea of a Moshiach - Messiah - and resultantly a day of resurrection. However, still no mention is made of of reward or punishment in the afterlife. And in truth, it's very easy to see why a group of people would begin to create a Messiah-figure in their mythology when living under occupation as they were.

Incidentally, it is in those later writings that the Messiah is first described as a descendant of David - which of course was used later as "confirmation" of Jesus' status as Christ, because of his direct descent from King David.

Come on - even if someone believes in freedom of choice, nobody's going around having as many abortions as they can. Peabody was simply saying that whatever your stance on abortion is, nobody would rather have one then, say, prevent the unwanted pregnancy in the first place.

I'm not saying its fun "Hey everyone lets get pregnant and go get abortions". But if the need arises they and I have no problem with it.

Actually, in thos early days, rights were abundant - but only for the elite, the erudite, the wealthy, or the citizenry - which generally meant about 10% - 20% of the adult male population.

I talking about when man was hunter gatherer and in the very begining of civilisation. Everything they did they didnt do because they were forced to but because they needed to. A big difference.

The idea is that we have CHOSEN to live by a set of tenets, ideologies, and teachings. "A life of righteousness is its own reward."

Live by these rules and have eternal life in paradise dont and you go to hell... sure you have the choice but its not really much of a choice. Its like holding a gun to someones head and telling them to do something, they COULD say no... but who does? That is not free will.

In a very real way, Teaos, your atheism or agnosticism - you have never told us if you disdain the idea of G-d, or merely of organized religion - dictates your responses as much as my faith does mine. You DO act a certain way, because of the CHOICE you have made to believe, or not, as you will - the same as me.

Ok I tried to avoid bringing my own personal beliefs in here becuase when people do it tends to get ugly.

Im and athieist. I find no scientific or personal reason to believe there is any form of higher power out there. I thing there are many reasons why others are but I am not.

Because I dont believe in him I cant be angry at him but if he were real I'd think him a pretty big cu*t.

I have a personal fued with organised religion due to confilicts we have had in the past. To put it very simply I'll use the saying "Good people will always do good things and bad people will always do bad things, but it takes religion to make good people do bad things"

I talking about when man was hunter gatherer and in the very begining of civilisation. Everything they did they didnt do because they were forced to but because they needed to. A big difference.

Ah...I see. So now Civilization's the big baddie? I guess we'd all be much better off living in mud huts and hunting wildebeeste for our food...after all, we'd have lots of personal freedoms.

Live by these rules and have eternal life in paradise dont and you go to hell... sure you have the choice but its not really much of a choice. Its like holding a gun to someones head and telling them to do something, they COULD say no... but who does? That is not free will.

Well, there's also Original Sin, which states that we're all much more likely to do bad things than good when it comes down to it, but forget that for a moment. But really, its the other way around. We're basically being offered eternity in Paradise, in Jesus...and yet, a good bit of the population is stolidly refusing the offer, and dragging themselves downwards into Hell.
"He that seeks, finds. To him who knocks, it shall be opened."

Im and athieist.

Well, really; who'd have guessed?

Ah...I see. So now Civilization's the big baddie?

Not at all. But it seems most people make civilisation and personal freedom mutually exclusive when they dont have to be.

We're basically being offered eternity in Paradise, in Jesus...and yet, a good bit of the population is stolidly refusing the offer, and dragging themselves downwards into Hell.

Can you expand on that thought a bit more please. I'm not quite sure what your saying.

By what the Bible teaches (I use the Bible and christianity as it is the one I am most familiar with) I am going to hell. I have stolen (Nothing important but who hasnt swipped something at some stage) I've coveted my neighbours wife (Who hasnt).

Infact pretty much the only ones of the big 10 I havent broken are though shall not murder.

I also don't follow a lot of what the Bible says as a moral out line.

Yet I am nice to my friends and family. I help out when I can. I support a few charities (mainly through time as money isnt flowing for me) and I generally havent done anything most humans would consider very bad.

Yet I am going to hell...

Captain Peabody wrote:

I talking about when man was hunter gatherer and in the very begining of civilisation. Everything they did they didnt do because they were forced to but because they needed to. A big difference.

Ah...I see. So now Civilization's the big baddie? I guess we'd all be much better off living in mud huts and hunting wildebeeste for our food...after all, we'd have lots of personal freedoms.

Civilazation is a big-bad as far as freedom goes. The more people you have, the more civilized you become, the more rules imposed (good or bad) and therefore the less freedom you actually have (as you have to stay inside rules imposed on you). Now, that does not mean we are not better off within a civilazation. but, you can point to many different civilizations and show rather obvious flaws or lack of ciliv liberties or blatent lack of freedoms.

Teaos wrote:Live by these rules and have eternal life in paradise dont and you go to hell... sure you have the choice but its not really much of a choice. Its like holding a gun to someones head and telling them to do something, they COULD say no... but who does? That is not free will.

As I mentioned a number of times, including the post from which you quoted me, my faith does not have a Christian concept of Hell, nor of any sort of afterlife including punishment or reward. One of the basic premises of Judaism is that a person should choose to do good for its own sake. How is that anything other than free will?

I talking about when man was hunter gatherer and in the very begining of civilisation. Everything they did they didnt do because they were forced to but because they needed to. A big difference.

They did what they NEEDED to. And when city-dwelling and civilization came around, man NEEDED to do certain things in order to preserve the structure of communal life - like institute certain codes of coduct. Now that you're talking about the cause of behaviors, it really comes out that although the details of the behaviors are different, the causes are the same, and the argument of "forced to" v. "needed to" breaks down. In the days before civilization rights were a non-issue, because a person's entire waking life had to be spent in the pursuit of food; it is only after civilization that man had "leisure time" enough to worry about the things that we take to be rights or privileges.

By what the Bible teaches (I use the Bible and christianity as it is the one I am most familiar with) I am going to hell. I have stolen (Nothing important but who hasnt swipped something at some stage) I've coveted my neighbours wife (Who hasnt).

Exactly. You've just hit on the main point of Christianity, and what separates it from most other religions. The idea is what you said; that no one has the strength to do the right thing all the time...that we've all sinned, and so we all truly do deserve eternal damnation. We know what is right and wrong, and yet we have done evil. But when Jesus died on the Cross, he covered our sins, so that anyone who chooses to obey him would recieve forgiveness for their sins, and be fit to enter Heaven. Apart from Christ, we are all damned...and what is more, we all deserve to be damned. But if we choose to follow Christ, he will cover our sins with his blood, so that we can come into His heavenly kingdom.
So when I say that we are offered eternal life, and yet some are still dragging themselves down to Damnation, I mean it. All that are in Hell, choose it. To he who knocks, it shall be opened.
That is Christianity.

Sorry for just jumping in here.

The idea is what you said; that no one has the strength to do the right thing all the time...that we've all sinned, and so we all truly do deserve eternal damnation. We know what is right and wrong, and yet we have done evil. But when Jesus died on the Cross, he covered our sins, so that anyone who chooses to obey him would recieve forgiveness for their sins, and be fit to enter Heaven. Apart from Christ, we are all damned...and what is more, we all deserve to be damned. But if we choose to follow Christ, he will cover our sins with his blood, so that we can come into His heavenly kingdom.

So, the only way into heaven is if we choose to believe in Christ? And that he will forgive us for our sins, provided we believe in him? That must let some rather unpleasant people in.
What about Hitler? He was very religious. Would he be let in?
What about the crusaders, who killed hundreds of thousands in God's name?
What about the Inquisition, who tortured and executed hundreds who didn't follow the Bible to the letter?

So when I say that we are offered eternal life, and yet some are still dragging themselves down to Damnation, I mean it. All that are in Hell, choose it. To he who knocks, it shall be opened.
That is Christianity.

What about all the people in third world countries who have never heard of christianity? Or people who live in countries where they'd be killed if they were christians? They didn't choose anything. What would happen to them?

So, the only way into heaven is if we choose to believe in Christ? And that he will forgive us for our sins, provided we believe in him? That must let some rather unpleasant people in.

Well, obviously, believing in Christ does not just mean believing that he existed and is God; after all, even the Devil does that. It means submitting ourselves to him, and trying our best to follow God's dictates, and to persevere in our faith until the end of our lives. But when we do stumble, which we will, we know that provided we repent the sin, God will forgive us.

What about all the people in third world countries who have never heard of christianity? Or people who live in countries where they'd be killed if they were christians? They didn't choose anything. What would happen to them?

That's a good question...and frankly, one to which an answer has not been given us. It may be that even people who have never heard of Christ can be saved through him...but we just don't know. This has been a point of contention among Christians for a long, long time. But really, it doesn't concern us; God will save who he deigns to save, and we just have to trust in him, and try to reach as many people with the Gospel as we can. As for people who would be killed if they became Christian...Christ has told us that anyone who suffered for his sake would be blessed.

Nice talking with you...