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Rochey wrote:Even if they're small, they're still built out of whateverium.

They held off Scorponok with small arms fire. They also inflicted heavy damage in the final battle in the first film with small arms.

They did? When?

The final battle of the first film.

Indeed. So why have humans on the ground at all if they've not got weapons to tackle the Decepticons?

Why have infantry when you have tanks, airplanes and ships? Because in battle, every bullet counts. Every set of eyes counts. Plus, you can't have humans being totally dependent on the Autobots for defense. You need troops trained against all enemies. Even if you know its going to cost you.

I think I already made my views on most of this clear, but I do want to address the following

Why have infantry when you have tanks, airplanes and ships?

Because sometimes you can't just blow the shit out of everything and call it a day. Actually, these days you largely can't get away with blowing the shit out of everything. You can't just level buildings to kill your enemies like you could in the old days, you have to go in a kill your opposition individual by individual. Plus there are places you just can't get a tank or plane or ship into. And there are times when it's better to capture a place then destroy it outright. In all those cases, you need infantry to go in to do the job.

BUT, infantry is really only effective against other infantry. Yes, you can engage tanks and planes with infantry, but generally speaking it's not the best way to go about it. You fight tanks with other tanks or with heli's or planes. You fight planes with other planes or with vehical mounted AA missiles. Infantry vs vehicals tend to be skewed against the infantry.

With the transformers though, their infantry is equal to (well actually greater than) our tanks. So why not engage them with the proper tools?

Deepcrush wrote:They held off Scorponok with small arms fire.

They held him off? He was standing out in the open blasting away at them while taking no damage. It took a frickin' C-130 gunship firing sabot rounds to drive him off.

Deepcrush wrote:They also inflicted heavy damage in the final battle in the first film with small arms.

Weren't they using some sort of funky sabot-launcher things in the final battle? I specificaly remember the lead soldier guy hitting Blackout with some sort of grenade launcher thing, and I think the rest were carrying similar weapons. And even then they did little real damage, needing F-22 and Autobot support to finaly take him out.

Deepcrush wrote:Why have infantry when you have tanks, airplanes and ships?

That's not really analogous. Infantry fullfills a vital role that tanks, aircraft and ships can't. However, a Transformer can fullfull that same role while having superior firepower and durability.

Moreover, arming infantry with rifle (as in the first battle of T2) makes them totaly impotent against the Decepticons. You are litteraly sending troops out with no means of defending themselves.

Deepcrush wrote:Because in battle, every bullet counts. Every set of eyes counts. Plus, you can't have humans being totally dependent on the Autobots for defense. You need troops trained against all enemies. Even if you know its going to cost you.

Of course. So then arm troops with weapons that can actualy damage their opponents.
Seriously, the only Decepticon that was vulnerable to small arms fire was Frenzy, and even he survived numerous shotgun rounds and was only killed by his own weapon. Even the panther-Decepticon at the start of T2 was immune to the rifles that the soldiers were firing at it, allowing him to return fire with impunity. He only fled when the humans started massing against him.

Blackout was killed by Lennox getting a shot right to the Spark chamber.

Devastator/Brawl was ultimately killed by Bumblebee's cannon.

Scorponok took A-10 fire with little/no damage. It took the gunship's shells to damage him and drive him off.

Exactly. Apart from Frenzy, none of them so much as flinched at small arms fire. And even he survived it.

Um, wasn't Blackout killed with a normal gun? I don't rememebr, but it looked like a normal one.

Rochey wrote:
Moreover, arming infantry with rifle (as in the first battle of T2) makes them totaly impotent against the Decepticons. You are litteraly sending troops out with no means of defending themselves.

That's not exactly true, a rifle can potentially damage sensors and other small but vulnerable bits if the TF's have them. We're actually taught to open fire at tanks with rifles and MG's because even if we can't breach the armour we can still smash optics and such.

Besides, in the few years(?) that the Transformers have been here what would they have been able to develop to replace the rifles? It's one thing to mount an M203 on a bunch of M16's but it's another thing to tool up a production line for the OICW and then have to deflect questions when they don't start showing up in units.

stitch626 wrote:Um, wasn't Blackout killed with a normal gun? I don't rememebr, but it looked like a normal one.

no, Lennox slid beneath him firing what looked like grenades or some kind of small explosive.

Ah, ok. Hard to remember when you've only seen short clips.

Cpl Kendall wrote:That's not exactly true, a rifle can potentially damage sensors and other small but vulnerable bits if the TF's have them. We're actually taught to open fire at tanks with rifles and MG's because even if we can't breach the armour we can still smash optics and such.

Fair point, though I'd imagine that Transformer optics are made of tougher stuff than modern day vehicles. There's also the problem that tanks, compared to Transformers, are pretty slow.

Cpl Kendall wrote:Besides, in the few years(?) that the Transformers have been here what would they have been able to develop to replace the rifles? It's one thing to mount an M203 on a bunch of M16's but it's another thing to tool up a production line for the OICW and then have to deflect questions when they don't start showing up in units.

They don't need to develop new guns. They had some sort of grenade launcher that worked in the original movie. Simply outfit them all with those. Or at least give them LAWs, or something.

Rochey wrote:
They don't need to develop new guns. They had some sort of grenade launcher that worked in the original movie. Simply outfit them all with those. Or at least give them LAWs, or something.

These?:


The thing with grenade launchers is that the grenades arc a fair bit and that requires extra training on the order of firing hundreds of rounds if what I was told was accurate and that they can't be used at close range. That bit in the first movie with Captain Fantastic sliding under Blackout and shooting him? He should be dead.

Otherwise I agree.

Ah, right. So the grenade launchers are out.

In that case, I'd guess RPGs would be preferable, right?

RPG's, IIRC, also have a minimum range. Some crap about "not killing yourself when you fire it" or something.

Uh, right.

Sometimes Rochey, QMC gives you something and you just have to deal. Just because you don't like your gear doesn't mean you don't do your job.