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Captain Seafort wrote:

Thorin wrote:PS I've not read the thread, sorry if it's already come up!

Once, somewhere in the depths of the thread. No-one's suggesting that 400GW of any type of energy would have the same effect, but that it was the fact that it was KE that caused the problem.

Have there not been instances where something has hit shields at far greater speeds and masses? Surely a torpedo just before explosion travelling at a fair speed would have far greater KE.

Thorin wrote:Have there not been instances where something has hit shields at far greater speeds and masses? Surely a torpedo just before explosion travelling at a fair speed would have far greater KE.

That was brought up (and promptly went round and round in circles in classic DITL fashion). The problem is that even travelling at the sort of speeds necessary, the KE would be very low due to the mass-lightening they use.

Captain Seafort wrote:That was brought up (and promptly went round and round in circles in classic DITL fashion). The problem is that even travelling at the sort of speeds necessary, the KE would be very low due to the mass-lightening they use.

....only if the mass lightening was to the same level as with a large ship, a 1kg torpedo could still do large damage.........but we when around this already also.

Deepcrush wrote:So KE is the key to wrecking the shields. Maybe thats why those Spacial Charges did so much hurt to Voy.

From Insurrection, part of one Son'a ship was blown off and hit the second ship. That definitely qualifies as KE.

The only thing I can think of is that torpedoes use a higher amount of mass lightening than ships, as the generator doesn't have to last as long. Of course the counter is that the generator has to be cheaper (aka expendable) and small enough to fit inside the torpedo.

Still, to get 4.5 million TeraJoules (from here), given that Ent-D has a 21,000 TW reactor, it will take about 3.5 minutes per torpedo. Dropping that to 1 kg will take 2 seconds per torp, assuming full from the main reactor can be appliedto the torp launcher (this is another topic below).

So for every kinetic torp you want to fire, you need to charge the launcher coils (or the torp itself) for 2 seconds using the full power of the main reactor, not the watered down stuff you get at the weapons locations. No shields or engines (life support and Sickbay I assume don't draw enough to even cause the engine gauges to twitch), and the Holodeck has to be offline.



Power from M/AM reactor, to location:
1) M/AM reaction ("True Q" - assume Data meant GigaJoules per second, rather than GigaWatts per second, means the ship generates 12.75 billion Gigawatts inside the reaction chamber)
2) heat up the plasma (darn antimatter reactions are known, and they aren't 100% efficient at heating up plasma, plus all the radiaton escaping the chamber means you aare losing power - "The Adversary" had the shapeshifter fatally injured by that radiation)
3) Moving the plasma from the reaction chamber (where it was kicked up into the TeraWatt range, from "The Masterpiece Society" - note the phrase "kicked up to TeraWatt" - this is likely due to the temperature of the plasma dropping rapidly)
4) Transporting it all through the ship, involving heating losses (though the torp launchers are in the Engineering hull, making this easier) ("The Dauphin" - Riker said a TeraWatt emitter was more than the entire ship could generate)
5) convert it into useful electricity

Coalition wrote:Still, to get 4.5 million TeraJoules (from here), given that Ent-D has a 21,000 TW reactor, it will take about 3.5 minutes per torpedo. Dropping that to 1 kg will take 2 seconds per torp, assuming full from the main reactor can be appliedto the torp launcher (this is another topic below).

Why can't the torpedo have it's own engines like they do now?

m52nickerson wrote:

Coalition wrote:Still, to get 4.5 million TeraJoules (from here), given that Ent-D has a 21,000 TW reactor, it will take about 3.5 minutes per torpedo. Dropping that to 1 kg will take 2 seconds per torp, assuming full from the main reactor can be appliedto the torp launcher (this is another topic below).

Why can't the torpedo have it's own engines like they do now?

Because the torp's own engines will be smaller, and will take longer to generate the KE necessary.

Unless you think that a torp's engines are stronger than the Ent-'s main reactor.

What people seem to forget (willingly or not, I do not know), is that the Husnock ship that attacked the E-D was not real.
How it did the damage may not have been through ordinary weapons at all.
The ship was able to appear from out of nowhere, then hit the E-D, was able at first to absord everything the E-D could fire at it, but then was destroyed by 1 single torpedo.

The power value from the attacks are meaningless, if only because of that reason.

Here are a few exerpts of the script:

WORF
The vessel is firing jacketed
streams of positrons and
antiprotons, equivalent firepower
of forty megawatts. Shields are
holding.

WORF
(continuing)
Shields down! Captain, they hit
us with four hundred gigawatts
of particle energy!

PICARD
Damage?

WORF
Superficial -- but I am having
trouble reassembling the shields!

WORF
(continuing)
Shields down! There is thermal
damage to the hull!

DATA
The warship is in possession of
enormous energy reserves. It is
capable of striking us with
far more powerful bursts.

RIKER
(with pleasure)
Lieutenant Worf, fire phasers on
full with a simultaneous spread
of torpedoes.

47 EXT. SPACE - THE ENTERPRISE AND WARSHIP (OPTICAL)

The Enterprise lets fly. The warship is hit -- but it
might as well have been with a feather pillow.



48 INT. MAIN BRIDGE (OPTICAL)

DATA
The vessel appears undamaged.
Its defenses are apparently able
to absorb incoming matter and
energy.

RIKER
Commence rapid fire with all
weapons on full!

The Enterprise lets loose with everything it's got in a
sustained barrage. The warship is unaffected. It
fires back with one awesome burst. The Enterprise is
knocked head over heels (so to speak). The entire
bridge crew is knocked down. There is damage to the
bridge -- and injuries to one of the supernumeraries.

WORF
Shields are down! There is
internal damage -- weapon systems
control has been lost!

DATA
Commander. The warship is
approaching from high orbit. It
is very close -- three hundred
thousand kilometers distance.

RIKER
How is that possible? Is
something wrong with the sensors?

PICARD
Ready a photon torpedo. Fire at
the vessel when ready.

WORF
Aye, sir.

65 EXT. SPACE - THE ENTERPRISE AND WARSHIP (OPTICAL)

The Enterprise fires the torpedo at the warship. It
strikes home. The warship goes up in a spectacular
explosion!

Praeothmin wrote:What people seem to forget (willingly or not, I do not know), is that the Husnock ship that attacked the E-D was not real.

The E-D's shields registered a 400GW impact. It doesn't matter whether that impact was caused by the weapons of a real ship, or by Douwd magic, the fact remains that the impact occured, and it was of the power stated. There was no surprise expressed that an impact of that power knocked down the shields, only that the ship (that had previously only demonstrated 40MW shots) was capable of such power.

Captain Seafort wrote:There was no surprise expressed that an impact of that power knocked down the shields,

Was there really no surprise?
I don't remember very well, it's been a while since I've seen this episode.
Do you have a link to the clip?
If not, I'll try to find it on youtube when I'm not at work...

The E-D's shields registered a 400GW impact. It doesn't matter whether that impact was caused by the weapons of a real ship, or by Douwd magic, the fact remains that the impact occured, and it was of the power stated.

The ship's sensors also registered that none of their previous shots were having any effects, yet the enemy ship was then destroyed by one torpedo at the end.
Also note that when the vessel appeared again at the end, it appeared at a distance of 300 000 km.
Riker expressed surprise that the vessel could have appeared that close without being detected, and was wondering if the sensors were having problems.
This makes me doubt the validity of the ship's sensors in this case.

There was no surprise expressed that an impact of that power knocked down the shields, only that the ship (that had previously only demonstrated 40MW shots) was capable of such power.

Actually, they weren't surprised by that power demonstrated, because Data said after the second shot that:

DATA
The warship is in possession of
enormous energy reserves. It is
capable of striking us with
far more powerful bursts.

Another strange sensor input:

RIKER
But it's our boy -- roughly five
times our mass and carrying enough
armament to pulverize a planet.

All of these make me doubt the values stated.
You don't "pulverize a planet" with 400GW kinetic beams.
We don't know if the "jacketing" portion of the stream could have knocked the shields out, or not, we don't know the exact working of the beam that hit them.

But, even if we used that 400GW at face value, this is one low end example among many higher end ones...

Praeothmin wrote:Was there really no surprise?

Not at the shields' failure.

Clip

The onlt surprise was at the firepower displayed.

The ship's sensors also registered that none of their previous shots were having any effects, yet the enemy ship was then destroyed by one torpedo at the end.

So?

Also note that when the vessel appeared again at the end, it appeared at a distance of 300 000 km.
Riker expressed surprise that the vessel could have appeared that close without being detected, and was wondering if the sensors were having problems.
This makes me doubt the validity of the ship's sensors in this case.

They also speculated about various tactics that could explain the ship's sudden appearence. Plus, of course, the thing had been created by the Douwd - it's hardly surpising that it kept popping up out of nowhere, and that it's capabilities kept changing. However, the damage to the E-D, including the collapse of the shields, would have been registered by internal sensors, rather than being a Douwd creation. Those sensors registered a 400 GW hit, which knocked out the shields.

Actually, they weren't surprised by that power demonstrated, because Data said

What Data's statement got to do with their surprise? The ship turned up, fired a few 40MW shots, and left. It later returned and hit the E-D with 400GW shots, provoking surprise. Data then stated from sensor readings that it was capable of firing even more powerful shots.

All of these make me doubt the values stated.
You don't "pulverize a planet" with 400GW kinetic beams.

Define "pulverise". If you're talking about scattering a planet's mass then true, you couldn't do that with 400GW shots. If you're talking about cratering the surface and wiping out all life on the planet, then it's certain that the ship was capable of doing so, as the evidence is right there on screen.

We don't know if the "jacketing" portion of the stream could have knocked the shields out, or not, we don't know the exact working of the beam that hit them.

We do, however, have evidence that the shields were knocked out, the beam that did so was comprised of "particle energy", and had a power of 400GW. Therefore a 400GW KE shot knocked out the E-D's shields, and lacking any evidence of fancy tricks we assume that it did so through brute force.

But, even if we used that 400GW at face value, this is one low end example among many higher end ones...

Not at all: most examples we have involve stars, or weapons. Not KE.

The E-D was also hit by a good number of shots. Close to a dozen. I'd think it would be wise to count those shots together as it took two volleys to drop the E-D's shields.

EDIT.

Correction. Where it was firing in bursts of two at first. It would appear later to fire single shots. So it only fired six times at the E-D.

If it was the cumulative effect of all the shots that knocked out the shields, rather than peak intensity, then why did Worf report power rather than energy?

If he reported trouble after two hits. That could have been the 400GW. So then if the E-D was hit six times then the total would end at 1200GW.

Captain Seafort wrote:We do, however, have evidence that the shields were knocked out, the beam that did so was comprised of "particle energy", and had a power of 400GW. Therefore a 400GW KE shot knocked out the E-D's shields, and lacking any evidence of fancy tricks we assume that it did so through brute force.

Accept for the fact that the shots glowed and seemed to enveloped the shields.........you know......like other energy weapons we have seen. So I doubt it was a pure KE attack.

m52nickerson wrote:Accept for the fact that the shots glowed and seemed to enveloped the shields.........you know......like other energy weapons we have seen. So I doubt it was a pure KE attack.

And if I shone a torch in your face and then punched you, would you doubt that was a KE attack? We have an explicit statement from Worf as to the nature of the impact - the light show was probably some kind of containment field.