Theoretical question.

[Aaron]

I hate to point this out but Humanity has gone along with quite a few Genocides, including the US and I'm not talking about ancient History. Even when we know what is happening we still do too little to stop it, Somalia, a few troops were killed in a botched attack, we ran. Rwanda, 11 soldiers died because of UN rules which were forced onto them by the US and French Government which allowed them to be killed, we ran. The ongoing problems in Darfur...

Rwanda was more a failure of the international community to react than any running. The Contingent Commander reported numerous times that there would be a genocide and that he couldn't stop it with the troops he had, indeed he tried to and several men died. The Belgian Para's that were there actually burned their UN Berets in protest on the tarmac when they got back. And 90% of the troops that were there (CO included) wound up with PTSD.

[KuvahMagh]

I know, but the two main nations which blocked more action until it was too late was the French Government, who backed the Hutus and sold them most of the Weapons they needed to carry out the Genocide and the US who refused to call what was happening a Genocide because International Law would require them to react so they kept the mission strangled from the very begining all the way through until it became to obvious to all what was happening.

I agree it was a failure of the International Community but it was sure helped out by those Governments.

On a side note I own both Dallaire's book as well as the Movie based on it, the documentry showing his return along with a few other books on similar subjects, I've just started reading Empty Casings about Sarejevo actually.

[Aaron]

I know, but the two main nations which blocked more action until it was too late was the French Government, who backed the Hutus and sold them most of the Weapons they needed to carry out the Genocide and the US who refused to call what was happening a Genocide because International Law would require them to react so they kept the mission strangled from the very begining all the way through until it became to obvious to all what was happening.

Dude, most of the Rwanden genocide was conducted with machetes.

I agree it was a failure of the International Community but it was sure helped out by those Governments.

You've just described the fundemental problem of the UN, the Security Council. Namely the nations on it.

On a side note I own both Dallaire's book as well as the Movie based on it, the documentry showing his return along with a few other books on similar subjects, I've just started reading Empty Casings about Sarejevo actually.

I haven't read or seen these, hits a little to close to home. The author of Empty Casing, Fred Doucette works for the same organisation that I do though.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Well if the US government was taken over by a dictatator with an ego the size of Texes and a score to settle then, probably yes.

On a side note, nice Jab at Bush there...

I didn't even realize I did that

[Duskofdead]

I hate to point this out but Humanity has gone along with quite a few Genocides, including the US and I'm not talking about ancient History. Even when we know what is happening we still do too little to stop it, Somalia, a few troops were killed in a botched attack, we ran. Rwanda, 11 soldiers died because of UN rules which were forced onto them by the US and French Government which allowed them to be killed, we ran. The ongoing problems in Darfur...

The U.S. in its present form could not exist without the use of genocide. This is a huge tangent and I'd apologize sincerely if this helps create one but I just had to point out that something need not be recent nor conducted with modern methods in order to still be a genocide. And genocide can be accomplished in many forms, it does not have to be direct violence.

[Tsukiyumi]

Smallpox, anyone?

[Teaos]

When does it go from killing a few of them to genocide though? Small pox can't really be considered Genocide.

[Aaron]

When does it go from killing a few of them to genocide though? Small pox can't really be considered Genocide.

When you distribute blankets that have been exposed to it on purpose than that is genocide. A long with all the other efforts to wipe out the First Nations in the America's.

[Teaos]

That guy who sent around anthrax in letters after 9/11. Was he commiting genocide?

I think Genocide has to be a serious attempt at destroying a cetain group of people.

[Aaron]

That guy who sent around anthrax in letters after 9/11. Was he commiting genocide?

That was terrorism.

I think Genocide has to be a serious attempt at destroying a cetain group of people.

Yeah who would think that a concentrated effort to kill of the First Nations with germ warfare would be genocide?

[Sionnach Glic]

That was the same philosophy behind having the armed security guards conducting blood tests on Earth streets. And the citizens were uncomfortable with it.

Um, there's a rather large difference there.
People like displays of strength by whoever's protecting them because they want to know that said protector actualy has the ability to protect them.
People don't like being interfered with or having their privacy invaded, as with your blood test examples.

Or that I meant a massive burst like an explosion, with the Scimitar being in the eye of the storm so to speak and being immune to harm...from it's own weapon at least.

You will now prove that that's possible.

or they were just emiters

They were explicitly described as targetting wings. If they were emmiters, they would have been called emiters, not targetting devices.

No, I said Shinzon had his own prototypes, knew that the smaller weapon would be more predicatable then the larger versions. He would need prototypes so that he has some clue what he's building into the Scimitar. Afterall they didn't just shove nuclear reactors into Navy vessels, they had prototype reactors to figure out the pros and cons, and how to use it properly. Otherwise we'd have had a lot more sailors who suffered from radiation poisining. And I'm saying that's related to the civilian casualties but not directly.

And how does this back up your claims that Shinzon's attack on the Senate would have been totaly predictable for his Romulan allies?

Well, I think you suggested using the Scimitar's weapon rather then the sneak-the-bomb-in trick we saw in the movie.

Read my posts again. I never suggested anything that stupid.

What I meant was setting the device outside the Senate, and just pointing it at the area where the Senate members would be. All risk is virtualy eliminated with such a tactic, and colateral damage would only be along the lines of one or two people who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Well, this is a different species and culture where that might not be as true, but I see your point.

Prove that the Romulan mindset with regards to such things is massively different.

Well if the US government was taken over by a dictatator with an ego the size of Texes and a score to settle then, probably yes.

No, that would mean the president is ok with genocide. That does not mean that his VP, the Senate, the military, the Courts, and all the other groups that make up and support the government would be fine with genocide.

I hate to point this out but Humanity has gone along with quite a few Genocides, including the US and I'm not talking about ancient History. Even when we know what is happening we still do too little to stop it, Somalia, a few troops were killed in a botched attack, we ran. Rwanda, 11 soldiers died because of UN rules which were forced onto them by the US and French Government which allowed them to be killed, we ran. The ongoing problems in Darfur...

I know that, but that's not really what I meant. People are just fine to let millions of others die as long as it's not them dying, it's not them killing them directly, and it doesn't inconvinience them. The US, for example, may be fine with letting the stuff in Rwanda go on, but wouldn't you agree it would be a bit different if the President ordered Rwanda turned into a radioactive wasteland?

[stitch626]

the President ordered Rwanda turned into a radioactive wasteland?

Fortunatly, I don't think that such an order would be caried out... though you never know.

[Aaron]

Don't forget that Rwanda is in Africa, which is and always will be a shithole. Hence no one wants to put in any effort because it seems that no progress gets made.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

You will now prove that that's possible

We saw it in the senate murder scene!

They were explicitly described as targetting wings. If they were emmiters, they would have been called emiters, not targetting devices

Okay, you're probably right

Read my posts again. I never suggested anything that stupid.

What I meant was setting the device outside the Senate,

Oh, I thought you were suggesting using the scimitar's weapon.

But areas like government building tend to be filled with innocent civies, like tourists, children on field trips, and second rate assasins.

No, that would mean the president is ok with genocide. That does not mean that his VP, the Senate, the military, the Courts, and all the other groups that make up and support the government would be fine with genocide.

You don't really understand the concept of a Dictator do you?

I know that, but that's not really what I meant. People are just fine to let millions of others die as long as it's not them dying, it's not them killing them directly, and it doesn't inconvinience them.

Like, the Romulans would be okay with a clone and the Remans killing humans?

[Mikey]

We saw it in the senate murder scene!

No, the possibility for which Rochey asked for proof was the Scimitar being in a "safe zone" in the center of a spherical thalaron burst.