The potential for refits

[Sionnach Glic]

Well, consider it a group punishment, like a class detention, to get everyone more angry at the guy whose fault it really is.

[Granitehewer]

lol i don't think the guy meant any harm or aggro, perhaps is guilty of being a bit intractable or opinionated but nothing malicious, i'm sure a young fresh-faced rochey would have done something similar......

[Deepcrush]

Well, consider it a group punishment, like a class detention, to get everyone more angry at the guy whose fault it really is.

I've got no problem with that seeing how I already hate most people anyways. M52 is already on that list.

Atleast now I see what it takes to get a mod involved in something.

[Granitehewer]

you don't hate me though, as i too know how to bbq squirrels, eat corn on the cob with one tooth, sit on a wooden porch and hoot at out of towners.........

[Deepcrush]

Sounds like my uncle Bunky.

Do I know you?!

[Granitehewer]

deep isn't really a hillbilly and far from it, thats the irony of the jokes, that probably everyone else at his school was but he wasn't/isn't.
just like how i sometimes get the 'nationalist' jokes just because i happen to have a few 'st georges cross' and union jack tattoos, although i'm not a nationalist, appearances and origins can be deceptive.
i'm going to refit deep, with a lasergun for an ear now, just need to find the key for my lab......

[Deepcrush]

Well you're right on that. I'm not a hillbilly. Some of my family is but I'm not. I lived in farm country growing up and only visited the mountain side family, never lived there.

[Granitehewer]

you're a sensitive soul, hiding behind pseudobravado, who always adds sentimental value to events,people, places and overanalyses everything, playing a role, never showing his true self and definately not a mountain-man.
if anyone wants rednecks, try an area near my town called 'eston' , they actually use fire axes and joust across the dunes on quadbikes, and a few years ago decapitated the wallabies in a local wallaby farm, weird buggers

[Tsukiyumi]

Nah, you want rednecks try up in Plantersville where Uzume's boyfriend is from.

[Deepcrush]

you're a sensitive soul, hiding behind pseudobravado, who always adds sentimental value to events,people, places and overanalyses everything, playing a role, never showing his true self and definately not a mountain-man.

I just told you I'm not a mountain man. I lived on a farm. VERY VERY VERY different! Like I live around sea level and went to school and still have teeth!

[Granitehewer]

i know what you told me lol but you shouldn't self diagnose
i'm stuck researching 'schizophrenia' but just keep drifting onto here or working out where the nearest kebab parlour is,so if i go suddenly quite, am just clogging up my vessels.
hope mj52 or whatever he's called is ok

[m52nickerson]

If you're unwilling to accept basic logical facts, then I can't help you.

So basic you can't supply one thing from canon to support it.

Tell me, if me and Seafort have both failed to provide evidence....why are you the only one claiming it? There's plenty of people watching this deabte, yet none of them have noticed what seems to be very obvious to you?
Hm, could that perhaps be because we have provided evidence, and you've just refused to accept it?

....I can't speak for others so I don't know. It could be because they no longer care.

Prove the analogy is unworkable.

And just FYI, stating "but they're not 100% similar!" does not constitute a valid rebutal.

Ok I will do it again. Naval cannons are not at all similar to phasers. While the guns of naval ships get larger with larger ship there is no indication that phasers can be simply scaled up in this way. Which goes back to the proof I'm asking for. Naval ships move on a 2d plane, while starships do not, starships can also bank. The difference in moverment would allow combat manuvers that ar not possible for naval ships. Naval ships rely on armor, while starships have shields. Shields provide protection from all angels, while the armor on naval vessiles do not.

Well bully for the Defiant. Care to point out where I brought up the Sovereign? Oh, that's right, I didn't. Stop pulling out Red Herrings and adress the point I'm actualy making, your current tactic of "refute his point by putting words in his mouth" is getting very annoying.

I never said you brought up the Sov. I did because it is a dedicated warship as is the Defiant, and goes against your point that larger ships will have more weapons monted in each arc.

It is logic. If you refuse to accept it, then that's not our problem. Either refute it or concede the matter. Don't just say "you're wrong because I say so".

Just because something is logical does not mean it is true. That lagical assumption simply does not have any evidance to support it.

Because larger ships can mount more powerful arrays. Larger ships can't use more powerful torpedoes, because they do not exist, thus the power of a torpedo on a large ship will be the same as that on a smaller ship. Do you honestly not get this?

I have always gotten the points about the torpedoes. It is the phasers that are the issue. Again an example, the Sov ia larger then the Prometious, but they both mount the same type of phasers.

Not for a battleship. Why? Because the role of a battleship isn't to dogfight, it's to act as a mobile fortress and mount more guns than any other ship. Would you please do some basic research into the topic at hand before jumping in and insisting we're all wrong?

True for naval ships.

Prove phasers work similarly to modern electronics, particularly since they don't use electricity.

I cannot, nor can you prove they don't. So your premise as is mine is speculation.

Well no s**t, Sherlock. If one ship has just one less gun and moves and turns twice as fast, then of course it's going to have a better chance in combat.

Wait, so bigger is better is not 100% of the time correct?

Hey, dumbass, how many times do I need to repeat this?
MORE GUNS MEANS YOU CAN MOUNT MORE GUNS ON ANY GIVEN PART OF THE SHIP, THUS ALLOWING YOU TO BIRNG MORE GUNS TO BEAR ON ANY APPROACHING SHIP. WHAT PART OF THIS DO YOU HAVE TROUBLE UNDERSTANDING?

.....and that would be good against much smaller and weaker targets. That does not mean this would spell a garainteed victory against an opponent smaller, not not small enough not to handle the weapons in that arc.

Red Herring, yet again. I'm not talking about a Sovereign.

Good for you, let me know when you can follow allow with what are examples.

You honestly don't understand that having a larger reactor will allow you to have a greater amount of power available?
Your troubles understanding reality is not my problem. I suggest you sort them out before trying to debate again. You'll find that logic is used quite often in them.

I understand that a large reactor would let you have more power. What I'm asking you to provide is evidance that weapons like phasers don't have a maximum amount of power that can be fired from any single array. Or that shields generator size is determines the streights of the shields and just not the size of shield that can be generated.

The Sov has quantums and type XII phaser. The Defiant has Quantums. The Promethious has both type XII phasers and quantums, and is smaller then the Sov.

Yet again:
NO ONE MENTIONED SOVEREIGNS. Stop bringing them up!

Again it is an example of a Larger ship sharing the same armermant with a samller ship. Now instead of crying about it, lets try responding to it.

Right, so you are utterly clueless about basic military facts. Tell me, just why the f**k are you arguing a subject you know absolutely nothing about? I'm damn well tempted just to lock this thread right now due to your idiocy.

...I just asked you to explain it. It should not be to hard for your since you are under the assumption that your are so much more intelligent then I am.

More troubles dealing with basic logic.

More trouble finding support for your assumption?

Wow, congratulations. I never would have thought you'd manage to find yet another way to try and change the subject, but you've proved me wrong there.

We're talking about whether bigger ships are better than smaller ones. Not whether a GCS with a firepower upgrade would beat a GCS with a speed upgrade. Get with the f***ing program. You're not fooling anyone.

Gee, someone can't handle examples unless they are dead simple. Trying reading it again and you may get the fact that I was showing that it is also important how a ship is made, not just that it is bigger with more guns.

By all means, PM one of the mods or admins, link them to this thread, and tell them that we're breaking the rules by not providing evidence. Of course, the fact that none of them has said anything, despite at least one of them certainly viewing the thread, say something in and of itself: we're not breaking any rules.

We're provided evidence. You're refused to accept it for the simple fact that you don't like it. The only one violating any rules here is you, and you're damn lucky you haven't gotten yourself a thread in the Mod Forum over your dishonesty in this debate. Start debating properly, or I might just rectify that.

A threat how nice. All you have provided is assumptions. Not evidance. You know evidance were you referance a trek episode or other piece of canon.

No s**t, and they'd be powerful enough to seriously damage any attacker.
And, yet again, the GCS tangent is just that: a f***ing tangent that's dodging the point of this debate.

A properly designed battleship will beat a smaller one. That modern UFP ships (which certainly aren't battleships) suck does not change that fact.

You keep saying that but have yet to proved any canon evidance to support the assumptions it is built apon.

What's a light bulb powered by? Electricity.
What's a phaser not powered by? Electricity.

Prove that phasers have similar limitations to light bulbs.

The fact that it is a possibilty make your argument speculation.

Prove that a phaser array cannot utilise more energy than it normaly works with. That it can't take unlimited amounts of energy is a given, but you've not proven that it would be unable to take, say, 50% more power than it runs on on a normal basis.

Why are there different types of phaser arrays? If it is not the difference in there powerout put then what? Again since it is you that is making the assumption and using it as a basis of your bigger = better all the time statement.

Prove it. Barring divine intervention, the larger ship will always triumph.

Again based on your assumptions.

See above, where I pointed out you're full of s**t.

Really, how so?

Hello? We're not using naval analogies to say that a phaser on ship X will be more powerful than a phaser on ship Y. We're using it to point out a larger ship is better than a smaller one.

...and one of the reasons for that is because larger naval ships mount weapons that do more damage. In federation ships this is not always the case.

No, all based on logic, which you've just ignored.

Again, just because it is logical does not mean it is correct, that is why proof is needed.

Gee, perhaps because it allows them to use fuel more effeciently? Perhaps because it provides redundancy in case one is damaged?

Or perhaps the torpedoes can't normally track that well. We have seen a torpedo only one time in trek make a large sweepng turn, and it was modified.

No s**t, Sherlock. You may have missed this part, but we're assuming competance on behalf of all parties involved in this hypothetical conflict.

Yes, a perfectly, or as near perfect as you could get, designed large ship will be able to beat a perfectly design small ship. This is a cry from bigger is better as long as tech and role are the same.

Again, based on logic.
Again, you've yet to do anything about it other than whinge "I refuse to accept your answer!"

Then please by all means provide some evidance.

And was based on a century old spaceframe. It was nearing obsolesence by that point. I'm sure the Mirandas were upgraded with the latest guns and shields, but we all saw how quickly they went down. Why? Because there's only so long you can keep refitting a ship before it becomes useless. Do some research into basic naval facts.

Again they are starship not naval vessels. Do you have proof that the Mirandas were fully refit.

Hm? Where did I say any battle between a big ship and a small ship would be over quickly? Oh, yeah, I didn't. I said the big ship would win. And, lo and behold, that's exactly what happened.

It goes back to the point I was making that a smaller ship would be able to control were its enemies hit it. Had the E-E not been as manuverable as it was the fight would have been much shorter.

No rebuttal? Concession accepted.

Yes as far at the naval vessels. Boy I wish I could be cool like you!

And is there any reason why Starfleet couldn't develop the type XIII phaser? Nope.
And what would be required to power such a phaser? Bigger reactors.
Can a small ship mount such a big reactor? Nope.
Can a big ship? Yes.
Does this, therefore, mean that a bigger ship can carry more powerful guns than a smaller ship? Yes.

So why haven't they? Why wasn't the Sov design larger then even the Galaxy? I guess designing more powerful phaser are just than simple, like childs play almost.

That the UFP's pacifism has prevented much advances in the field of weaponary does not invalidate our points.

It's pacifism that prevented it from designing dedicated warships?

Oh, and I like how you've suddenly shifted the argument to "...provided both ships have the same types of guns as well".

Well that would be equal tech right?

Keep deluding yourself. Tell me, why has no one else claimed that we've not provided evidence. Even Dusk, who is somewhat on your side in this debate, has not made such accusations. No one viewing the thread has made such accusations.
We have provided evidence. That you're refusing to accept it is not my problem.

It is simple do you have evidance to support you assumptions or not?

Again, based on logic which in this instance is directly supported by canon.

Look, moron, I'll make it even more simple.
We see large and heavily armed Dominion battleships falling victim to smaller Federation destroyers. This proves that the Dominion's most powerful vessel is unable to match a Federation destroyer. This proves that the Dominion's military tech is inferior to the UFP's, as they are unable to match the Federation's vessels.

We see there battleships falling, please point out were?

Dumbass, we have proved it inumerable times. No one but yourself has claimed otherwise. Maybe that says something?

Yup, so dumb that you can't provide evidance to back up your argument.

Moron, age is a factor. If you took a WWI era cruiser, refitted it with modern systems and weapons, could it take on a modern cruiser?

Again with the naval ships?

Yes, yes, more delusions.

Look, quite simply I've had enough of your BS. Your rampant dishonesty and countless attempts to change the subject and move goalposts have just pissed me off, and you're not fooling anyone. Nor does your claim that we've not provided any evidence hold weight, as anyone with an eyeball and a brain stem can see by reading this thread. Start debating honestly and properly, or I'll be starting a thread in the Mod Forum with your name on it and a link leading to this thread and a suggestion of punishment of some sorts. Consider this an unofficial warning, it will be the last.

I have not changed the subject. I have been providing examples from IU. Perhaps you should start that thread and let other see if I have been doing the things you claim. I have asked repeatedly for you to provide evidance/proof that weapons like phaser act in the manor you assume.

Oh, and if I see "but that's just an assumption!" once more then I'm damn well locking this thread on the grounds that you're either incapable or unwilling to debate properly. Stating we're wrong is not proof. Explain how we're wrong.

I'm trying to show that your starting premis of Bigger=better with your additions may not always be correct. You are dealing in an absolute based on a few assumption you have made.

[Deepcrush]

Makes me think that M52 is in truth the person in his Avatar. Seeing how we are seeing the "No its not, no its not!" debate style.

Reminds me of....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJJA1vvMc4I

[Captain Seafort]

It's starting to remind me more and more of this.

[Deepcrush]

At least mine shows what m52 is like in person.

BURN SCORE!