Cardassian's technology level

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Deepcrush
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Post by Deepcrush »

There is no requirement to change anything. The State Govenors can call out the National Guard for Aid to the Civil Power operations (that includes rebellions) and the President can deploy troops on his fiat for up to ninety days before needing legislative branch approval.
The USNG is not the military, nor is it armed as such. I could go to some of my families homes and find most of the weapons that the USNG has. The NG normally acts under the control of the local political office. Not the president. In order the the President to retain control once deployed he would have to gain permission from congress by 2/3.

Katrina showed us how well that works. :lol:

The President needs to give an EO. Those troops cannot and will not act against the population. A riot is against the population there for the NG would put down the riot. BUT, if the President ordered the NG to attack the population in order to force control over then you would have the NG refusing or declaring Non-Factional. They will remove themselves from taking sides until a court order or act of congress told them to do otherwise.
Define these "morals" - the character of the US Constitution has changed several times in the past couple of centuries.
And none of these changes have called for the military to attack the US population. In fact it has done more to remove the military from even being connect to such enforcement needs.
The support of two-thirds of the House, Senate and States.
So now two thirds of the Nation have to agree that they want the military to used against them. I see that coming very soon. :roll:
The job of the military is to obey the law, not decide it. While there are exceptions for orders amounting to war crimes, the individuals refusing orders had better have their reasoning sorted out for their court-martial.
The military is to obey LAWFUL ORDERS that do not violate the moral code of the UCMJ. Bombing a city will most likely count as unlawful unless you can get those people to agree that they want to be bombed by the military.
The nukes were more of an extreme example to refute yur claim that private citizens can buy anything the govenment can.
The refute is meaningless if not in context. The population has access to anything that is to be USED AGAINST IT. The population includes police serve both the government and the people.
I'm talking about theoretical scenarios here, not making predictions of what could trigger such an uprising.
Fair enough.
Because the government employs them, perhaps?
This alone won't make someone follow. The military would need a reason beyond a halfway hearted paycheck to shoot into a crowd.
The Bill of Rights can be rewritten in exactly the same manner as the rest of the Constitution - two-thirds of the House, Senate and States.
The Bill of Rights can be added to and amended but not removed, EVER. No one has the power to do so.

Even if you somehow got congress to commit to such a thing. How much luck do you think you'll have with telling the armed forces to move against its own population?
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Post by Captain Seafort »

Deepcrush wrote:The USNG is not the military, nor is it armed as such. I could go to some of my families homes and find most of the weapons that the USNG has.
The National Guard is part of the military, albeit part of the reserves rather than the regulars. As for weapons, The National Guard has most of the same kit as the regulars, up to and including high-performance jets. Indeed, in some cases the ANG are better equipped than the USAF, as there are no regular A-10 units left.
Those troops cannot and will not act against the population. A riot is against the population there for the NG would put down the riot.
In other words, they will fight against the population. Who do you think said riot will be made up of? Little green men?
And none of these changes have called for the military to attack the US population. In fact it has done more to remove the military from even being connect to such enforcement needs.
And? It demonstrates that the character of the constitution has been changed in the past, and therefore sets a precident for changing it in the future should the situation demand it.
So now two thirds of the Nation have to agree that they want the military to used against them. I see that coming very soon. :roll:
Against them, no, but against disruptive and violent individuals or organisations, absolutely.
The military is to obey LAWFUL ORDERS that do not violate the moral code of the UCMJ. Bombing a city will most likely count as unlawful unless you can get those people to agree that they want to be bombed by the military.
The definition of lawful orders is defined by the UCMJ and international precedent regarding what constitutes war crimes. The former can be changed - something you don't seem to be grasping. As for bombing cities, it would require extreme circumstances, but if violent individuals holed themselves up securely enough that an infantry assault would result in excessive casualties, then yes, launch air strikes.
The refute is meaningless if not in context. The population has access to anything that is to be USED AGAINST IT. The population includes police serve both the government and the people.
You said that the general population could buy anything the US government could. "Anything" includes nuclear weapons.
This alone won't make someone follow. The military would need a reason beyond a halfway hearted paycheck to shoot into a crowd.
True. They'd also need to be armed, and be nervous about their own safety in the face of a hostile crowd.
The Bill of Rights can be added to and amended but not removed, EVER. No one has the power to do so.
It would take ten new amendments, revoking the first through tenth amendments. The likelihood of this happening is vanishingly small, but the power exists.
Even if you somehow got congress to commit to such a thing. How much luck do you think you'll have with telling the armed forces to move against its own population?
If it were a case of "we don't like Texas - carpet-nuke the entire state" then the order would probably be refused. If it were a case of using military force to quell a riot or insurgency, then I don't see the US military complaining - after all, they've done it before.
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Post by Deepcrush »

So, all in all there is a minute possibility that congress could agree on something and the president would support it then followed by the military acting on it and the population doing something to arise a need for the military to act against the population.

I don't personally see it happening in such a manner but there is always something in the future that could change that.

On another note, has anyone wondered why the UFP only lost 1.5 million troops and the Cardis at the same time had lost 7 million?
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Post by Aaron »

Deepcrush wrote:
The USNG is not the military, nor is it armed as such.
Then why are they deployed to Iraq?
I could go to some of my families homes and find most of the weapons that the USNG has.
I guess the M-60 that buddy stole and drove down the interstate was his.
The NG normally acts under the control of the local political office.
Typically, yes. There are options for them to be deployed under national commands.
Not the president. In order the the President to retain control once deployed he would have to gain permission from congress by 2/3.
The President can direct the military to conduct operations for 90 days without oversight. The National Guard is part of the military.
Katrina showed us how well that works. :lol:
That's just because Bush is a retard.
The President needs to give an EO. Those troops cannot and will not act against the population. A riot is against the population there for the NG would put down the riot. BUT, if the President ordered the NG to attack the population in order to force control over then you would have the NG refusing or declaring Non-Factional. They will remove themselves from taking sides until a court order or act of congress told them to do otherwise.
Kent State? The average military member will follow whatever orders he is given. Based on the actions of the military in the last 6 years, it seems likely that they would simply follow orders. The military has operations plans for these things that don't involve slaughter anyways.
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Post by Aaron »

Deepcrush wrote:So, all in all there is a minute possibility that congress could agree on something and the president would support it then followed by the military acting on it and the population doing something to arise a need for the military to act against the population.

I don't personally see it happening in such a manner but there is always something in the future that could change that.

On another note, has anyone wondered why the UFP only lost 1.5 million troops and the Cardis at the same time had lost 7 million?
Because the Cardie's are the ST equivilant of North Korea.
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Post by Deepcrush »

Well that helped.

Anywho... there must have been a reason for the higher loss rate that they suffered.
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Post by Aaron »

Deepcrush wrote:Well that helped.

Anywho... there must have been a reason for the higher loss rate that they suffered.
Think about it, inferior ships (requiring a three to one advantage to win against a SF ship), resource poor and a military dictatorship (meaning alot of troops are probably holding the fort at home).
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Post by Captain Seafort »

Deepcrush wrote:So, all in all there is a minute possibility that congress could agree on something and the president would support it then followed by the military acting on it and the population doing something to arise a need for the military to act against the population.

I don't personally see it happening in such a manner but there is always something in the future that could change that.
I doubt it would happen in the next year or so, or easilly, but to say that it could never happen, as you've been claiming is utter nonsense. In early 60s Britain, I doubt anyone considered the possibility of British troops patroling British streets with, GPMGs, armoured personnel carriers and tanks. A decade later that's exactly what was happening.
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Post by mlsnoopy »

On another note, has anyone wondered why the UFP only lost 1.5 million troops and the Cardis at the same time had lost 7 million?
At what point of the war was that. How much Federation territory did the Dominion take, didn't they only lost Betazed, smaller colonis would proabably be evacuated. Once the offence was taken into Cardasian space, orbital bombarbment can couse a lot of damage.
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Post by mlsnoopy »

On another note, has anyone wondered why the UFP only lost 1.5 million troops and the Cardis at the same time had lost 7 million?
At what point of the war was that. How much Federation territory did the Dominion take, didn't they only lost Betazed, smaller colonis would proabably be evacuated. Once the offence was taken into Cardasian space, orbital bombarbment can couse a lot of damage.
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Post by Sionnach Glic »

On another note, has anyone wondered why the UFP only lost 1.5 million troops and the Cardis at the same time had lost 7 million?
Perhaps the Cardies suck even worse than the Feds at ground combat?
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Post by Deepcrush »

I doubt it would happen in the next year or so, or easilly, but to say that it could never happen, as you've been claiming is utter nonsense. In early 60s Britain, I doubt anyone considered the possibility of British troops patroling British streets with, GPMGs, armoured personnel carriers and tanks. A decade later that's exactly what was happening.
Sounds like your country needs a larger police force and fewer troops.
Perhaps the Cardies suck even worse than the Feds at ground combat?
Is that even possible?
At what point of the war was that. How much Federation territory did the Dominion take, didn't they only lost Betazed, smaller colonis would proabably be evacuated. Once the offence was taken into Cardasian space, orbital bombarbment can couse a lot of damage.
It was when Damar turned on the Dominion.
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Post by Captain Seafort »

Deepcrush wrote:
I doubt it would happen in the next year or so, or easilly, but to say that it could never happen, as you've been claiming is utter nonsense. In early 60s Britain, I doubt anyone considered the possibility of British troops patroling British streets with, GPMGs, armoured personnel carriers and tanks. A decade later that's exactly what was happening.
Sounds like your country needs a larger police force and fewer troops.
The problem wasn't a lack of manpower but a lack of firepower. Against an opponent armed with assault rifles, machine guns and jury-rigged mortars, a police force is going to be somewhat outgunned.
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Post by Captain Seafort »

Rochey wrote:
On another note, has anyone wondered why the UFP only lost 1.5 million troops and the Cardis at the same time had lost 7 million?
Perhaps the Cardies suck even worse than the Feds at ground combat?
It's more likely to do with distribution of resources. The Klingons tended to be used as the alliance's ground troops, while the Feds formed the bulk of the space forces.

From what we've heard, the Cardies have probably got the best ground forces in Trek, since we've heard references to APCs ("The Darkness and the Light") and mechanised infantry ("The Wire").
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Post by Sionnach Glic »

Wow, mechanised infantry. Next thing you know, and we might actualy hear someone talking about tanks! :o
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