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There's a lot going on, but thats how governments work. A total wash of chaos with the leaders trying to make sense of it.

Nickswitz wrote:I think the large change is just overwhelming to him.

Really most of you are set in such a way you won't have to deal with it unless you massively expand your fleet or construction process. I believe everyone is running an excess in both areas right now, so if you do nothing you will all accumulate huge surplus amounts over time.

Mark wrote:I have a suggestion for both SIMS. Why don't the game masters incorporate the Orions? They could provide black market services such as under the table weapons, unlimited monetary loans with heavy interest, and even services such as sabotage and assassination?

We have the Ferengi to provide legitimate business (god help us)

Then the Orions can be their dark side.

Here is the issue with it...without territory to govern its a pure GM function. And it is difficult for the GM to manage not undercutting the prices of the players. With the FKI right now I take the time to chart out the cost of everything that do with the goal of making 50% profit on each item (though they often do much better). Doing the for the Orions would be very difficult.

Also there is nothing stopping players of various powers from supplying a weapons black market.

Well, there are worlds that belong to the Orions. Easy enough to add onto the map.

I was just thinking that there are things the Ferengi won't sell. A decent profit is about 33%. The Ferengi are managing a 50% percent profit. Cool.

But there are things the Orions can do that the Ferengi can't or won't.

WMDs, cloaking tech that violates the NPT, slaves, illegal goods such as agonizers (for interrogation), as well as services, such as smuggling, piracy, or assassination.

I just think it could open a new dimension to the game.

well some of that stuff have no real application for the SIM (agonizers for example), others still have the option of being sold illegally by any power.

Well, agonizers would feed into a suggestion I have, to enhance the "covert ops" and intel gathering of the game.

As for other powers, yes they could. But here are the problems.

A. If Cardassia wanted to provide cloaking tech to the Sheliak, I'm banned under threat of sanction from the NPT. Now, if the Orions "somehow" acquire said tech, it could be provided to them with the Orions as a middle man. Or if the Ferengi wanted to start another Klingon/Romulan war to increase profit, they could employ the Orions to attack Romulan shipping in a Bird of Prey.

B. If the Sheliak wanted to provide WMDs to the Breen, and were caught.....one or both would find themselves getting bombed back to the stone age by most powers. Not so with the Orions, because they are privateers and crime syndicates. What can you do? Invade the Orion/Rigel system? That's like invading Afgan to attack the Taliban.

C. The Breen want to make life difficult for the Cardassians, but know if they get caught again, it would mean war. Hire some Orion Pirates to harass shipping and raid freighters. Smugglers can get whatever is wanted or needed into, or out of sovereign space.

D. Orions deal in slaves. Slaves can provide a source of cheap labor for mining, building, and construction.

E. They can make it harder to catch shady dealings. If Section 31 suddenly decided to assassinate Chancellor Martok, they could hire the Orions. Remember, the Orions were hired to sabotage the Bable conference by attacking the Enterprise and framing Sarak.

I just think it would provide a very interesting dimension, with little effort. I'd like to see the game expand in that direction as well, and not just in such logistical matters as mining.

Mark, I think the problem is that you're thinking in such small scale that the issues you're bringing up wouldn't have any effect on the level to which we run the sims.

I disagree. These could have major ramifications. Imagine for a moment that you want to invade the Romulans again, but your allies in the KAA would disapprove. You could use the Orions in several ways.

A. You could pay the Orions to obtain a Romulan ship, and stage an attack against your forces.

B. You could pay the Orions to raid transports, absconding with goods to and from the RSE, refusing them to the enemy and increasing your own holdings.

C. You could want to boost production on a shipyard. Orions could provide slave labor.

D. Say the Gorn want to buy cloaking tech. They can either develop it themselves OR pay an exorbitant fee to the black market Orions for it.

E. Not only could they be useful to any and all nations, they would be running their own agenda as well.

Those are fine idea's but again they don't really impact us, the players, as they would the real factions on their own. Knocking out a few trades ships or staging an attack have the same result and thats war. If I want a war, I'll just start one.

Plus, the option for black market sales already exists. You just have to try and find a go between for them.

Mark I understand what your saying, and maybe we will revisit this in the future, but as of now it is going to be more work than either myself or BIG have time to do right now.

I think its an idea to be but in the idea shelf until there's more time for future "updates".

I don't have a problem if someone is looking for a middle man and they just say to me as GM I would like to sell this to so and so and would like to document the transaction as being blind on both sides. Heck, I would even quote someone pirate prices if they wished to increase pirate activity around a power.

I would just handle it as a one off thing rather than a whole crime syndicate though.

I think being able to deal with less reputable elements would be a nice touch. While the Klingons have no issue just starting a war for the hell of it the more democratic powers might want to be able to create a reason for their righteous war.

Stop giving me ideas!


As for black market, I already had to deal with something like that (Tal'Shiar) and never want to again. They took my money, never told me what they did with it, and a few years later, BOOM, war.

Thats why you deal with someone ELSES Tal'Shiar.