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The raw firepower of the Paladin for instance shall provide quite an improvement over the Sovereign. Have a Paladin battleship, and a pair of Sovereign's would survive far better than a Sovereign and a pair of Galaxy's/Nebula's.

...and Reliant completes teh circle. A true Paladin-type battleship would be best served working with those Sovs which would be filling the role of a battlecruiser. Therefore, as Seafort pointed out in support of my comment, the Sovs are not only built with the design intention of battlecruisers, they are best utilized in the field in the role of battlecruisers.

Deepcrush wrote:Its not beyond their reach. Their phasers were eating apart the Borg Cube the first time they met. The NavDeflector can channel even more power. They showed they could use it as a weapon. So, make a damn weapon out of it.

Agreed, the Enterprise D did pretty heavy damage with just a few shots during their first encounter - I reckon if they'd have let loose with all Phasers and Photons they could have escaped at least, if not done critical damage to the cube.

As to the deflector weapon they developed, I'd wondered before if that would have worked had Picard not been assimilated. If so, should the crew have wasted time trying to inrease the weapons range in order to ensure their own survival? Given what's at stake, shouldn't they have evacuated all none essential personnel and blown the Cube and themselves to smithereens?

Captain Seafort wrote:

m52nickerson wrote:Exactly. If the Federation could make a weapon with "enough" firepower to blow a cube away they would have no problem with anyone else. The problem is they most likely can't produce a weapon or ship that can generate that much firepower.

Who says it has to come from one ship? The fact is that the Feds can produce ships with exceptional mass-power ratios when they put their minds to it. Look at the Defiant - a fraction of the mass of a GCS, but matching it in firepower. Scale that up, using multiple warp cores if necessary, and while they may not be able to go one-to-one with a cube, they'd contribute significantly to any fleet sent against one, and would be able to concentrate their fire better than a fleet.

I understand that you don't have to have a single ship. I was using that because the conversation was coming from the issue of the Sov Vs. other ships.

I'm sure to some point you could scale the Defiant design up, but that does not mean that making more powerful pulse phasers is as simple as up-scaling. You could of course fit more on the weapons on that frame. However that may or may not be as affective as a Sov.

Reliant121 wrote:The raw firepower of the Paladin for instance shall provide quite an improvement over the Sovereign. Have a Paladin battleship, and a pair of Sovereign's would survive far better than a Sovereign and a pair of Galaxy's/Nebula's.

Mikey wrote:...and Reliant completes teh circle. A true Paladin-type battleship would be best served working with those Sovs which would be filling the role of a battlecruiser. Therefore, as Seafort pointed out in support of my comment, the Sovs are not only built with the design intention of battlecruisers, they are best utilized in the field in the role of battlecruisers.

The problem is that the federation does not have a ship like the Paladin, most likely because it does not need it, or that feel that they can't build a ship like that and have it turn out better then the Sov. If any ship is really meant to be a battle cruiser it would be the Prometheus.

The Prommie seems a bit small for the role, which would affect it's ability to stay on station for extended lengths, but that criterion may be overrated by 'Trek tech. However, the absence of the Paladin-type in no way affects the fact that the Sov's best fit would be in the role of a battlecruiser alongside such a battleship.

Mikey wrote:The Prommie seems a bit small for the role, which would affect it's ability to stay on station for extended lengths, but that criterion may be overrated by 'Trek tech. However, the absence of the Paladin-type in no way affects the fact that the Sov's best fit would be in the role of a battlecruiser alongside such a battleship.

Your still assuming that the Sov can't fill the battleship itself. Yes, the federation would be better with a more powerful ship, that does not mean it can produce one, or that the Sov can't act like a battleship.

A.) Evidence they can't produce a battleship?

B.) With everything showing the Sov fitting the Battlecruiser role, why wouldn't it be a battlecruiser?

Deepcrush wrote:A.) Evidence they can't produce a battleship?

B.) With everything showing the Sov fitting the Battlecruiser role, why wouldn't it be a battlecruiser?

A)The fact that the Sov is the biggest baddest thing they have.

B)Perhaps were we are getting hung up is in this, I think that if a ship can fill the role of a battleship it can be classified as such, regardless of the fact that it is manuverable and can act as a battlecruiser also. You may think that if a ship can act as a battlecruiser it should be classifiied as such regardless of its ability to act like a battleship.

I would call compromise here. What say we call the Sovereign a Fast Battleship (which btw, was hardly any different to a Battlecruiser at the end of world war I). That still begs, that a better battleship should be included to work in conjunction.

m52nickerson wrote:A)The fact that the Sov is the biggest baddest thing they have.

The most heavily armed, but not the biggest - that's the GCS, and if they built a Sov-quality ship the size of the GCS it would be more powerful.

B)Perhaps were we are getting hung up is in this, I think that if a ship can fill the role of a battleship it can be classified as such, regardless of the fact that it is manuverable and can act as a battlecruiser also. You may think that if a ship can act as a battlecruiser it should be classifiied as such regardless of its ability to act like a battleship.

It's not speed an manoeuvrability that ultimately define battlecruisers, but armour (or the lack thereof), and the Sov's armour is clearly inferior to what the Feds are capable of (i.e. the Defiant's).

Wikipedia wrote:Hood was the largest ship in the Royal Navy when completed; thanks to her great displacement, she seemed to combine the firepower and armour of a battleship with the speed of a battlecruiser, causing some to refer to her as a fast battleship.

Just like m52nickerson has stated previously.
The Sovie has the capacity to resist its own guns, thus it is tougher then a Battle Cruiser, on par with a Battleship.
It does, however replace mass with speed, which is why I believe the best analysis of the evidence presented comes from Deep, when he suggested that I merge the Battleship/Battlecruiser roles in my fleet list.
It is clear that the Sovie can act well in both roles.
I've seen suggestions of what the Paladin could do flanked with two Sovies.
I say a Sovie could do almost as well if it was also flanked with two other Sovies.
I mean, can you imagine the DW with a trio of Sovies leading, say, the retaking of DS9?
Or the battles of Chin'toka?

Deepcrush wrote:A.) Evidence they can't produce a battleship?

Well, what's the evidence that they can?
If it was so easy, then why do they not have one?
Who's to say that right now, the Sovereign doesn't represent the limit of what can be done?
Remember the first time the Defiant was taken out?
It was "overpowered for a ship its size".
Everytime they took it out, it wanted to "tear itself apart".
I too believe that the Federation has the Technology to design a bigger, more powerful ship, but perhaps they are having the same issues with it as when they designed the Defiant.
Upscaling technology and energy weapons may not be as easy as installing bigger power sources, or bigger emitters.
Again, just as we were discussing on the Nebula upgrading, you may have to redesign every circuit connected to those circuits, the Warp Core may produce more power then the relays and plasma conduits can tolerate or regulate.

Praeothmin wrote:The Sovie has the capacity to resist its own guns, thus it is tougher then a Battle Cruiser, on par with a Battleship.

Evidence? We've never seen two Sovs go up against each other.

It does, however replace mass with speed, which is why I believe the best analysis of the evidence presented comes from Deep, when he suggested that I merge the Battleship/Battlecruiser roles in my fleet list.

The sacrifice of heavy armour in favour of mobility is a defining characteristic of the battlecruiser type.

It is clear that the Sovie can act well in both roles.

On the contrary, the fact that we never see the Sov in a fleet action suggests that they may not have the endurance of other ships (such as the war-GCS).

I say a Sovie could do almost as well if it was also flanked with two other Sovies.

Not a chance. The Paladin is bigger and more heavily armoured, with a power-mass ratio at least equal to that of the Sov.

I mean, can you imagine the DW with a trio of Sovies leading, say, the retaking of DS9?
Or the battles of Chin'toka?

It would certainly have been impressive, but they weren't there, suggesting that they may be powerful and well-protected, but lacking the endurance to sustain a fleet action.

Well, what's the evidence that they can?

They can certainly build a ship that big (the GCS) and can produce ships with a high power-mass ratio (the Sov, Prommie and Defiant).

If it was so easy, then why do they not have one?

They simply don't want to. It took the Borg threat to make them start building proper warships like the Defiant. It takes time to design big ships, and they may not have a proper battleship design ready (if indeed they decided to build one).

Who's to say that right now, the Sovereign doesn't represent the limit of what can be done?

The somewhat larger GCS, and the higher mass-power ratio of the Defiant.

Remember the first time the Defiant was taken out?
It was "overpowered for a ship its size".
Everytime they took it out, it wanted to "tear itself apart".

And they solved those problems. It's not surprising they had problems the first time they built a ship with the highest mass power ratio they could.

Again, just as we were discussing on the Nebula upgrading, you may have to redesign every circuit connected to those circuits, the Warp Core may produce more power then the relays and plasma conduits can tolerate or regulate.

Even if they can't build big enough weapons to make maximum use of the power available (although the fact that the conduits to the GCS deflector could handle it) they could compensate by increasing the numbers of smaller weapons.

Reliant121 wrote:I would call compromise here. What say we call the Sovereign a Fast Battleship (which btw, was hardly any different to a Battlecruiser at the end of world war I). That still begs, that a better battleship should be included to work in conjunction.

Why? Just because you feel that the Federation needs some lumbering giant?

Captain Seafort wrote: The most heavily armed, but not the biggest - that's the GCS, and if they built a Sov-quality ship the size of the GCS it would be more powerful.

Not necessarily.

Captain Seafort wrote: It's not speed an manoeuvrability that ultimately define battlecruisers, but armour (or the lack thereof), and the Sov's armour is clearly inferior to what the Feds are capable of (i.e. the Defiant's).

....and you know this how. Not only that but since Starships also rely on shields for protection they also should be taken into account.