GCS Vs 12" Cannons

[Captain Seafort]

*snip maths*

Fair enough - so what would that inital acceleration be? I'm afraid I'm dredging my memory to get simple kinematic equations, let alone relativistic ones.

[m52nickerson]

Continuing to assume that the torp is going at .25c relative to the target (which would take half an hour or so), and indeed that the mass is only reduced by a couple of orders of magnitude - in Deja Q the E-D was able to reduce the mass of the moon by four orders of magnitude..

Perhaps 30 minutes for a ship the size of the Enterprise. What is the acceleration of a torpedo or probe? Why could you not design a small projectile with a higher acceleration?

Even with the mass reduced more you still have tremendous power. Speed could even be knocked down and you would still be able to get over that 400GW easy.

Which goes to show that Fed ships don't handle physical impacts at all well. This is the point I was making.

Or it goes to show that the fragment had signifigant power to destroy the ships no matter how well there shield take KE attacks.

Because the image is focused on those two ships, and the viewpoint is remaining stationary relative to them.

We never see this anywhere else in the movie or in canon. Plus even if the point of view was moving with the ships you would still be able to see some movement in the background. Then right after the impact is finished we see a wider shot and it is clear the ships are no longer moving. The Scimitars attempt to back up should have only served to increase the two ships velocity, instead we see the E-E stay put as if anchored.

For most of the rest of the battle the ships are moving very quicly relative to the camera, resulting in the impression of movement relative to distant objects. Given the scales we're talking about any real movement relative to those objects would be minimal.

In the large battles during the Dominion war we also see ships rammed, those ships don't move, and we have other ships on screen or we see the ramming from a distance were we see movement by both ships before the impact.

[m52nickerson]

*snip maths*

Fair enough - so what would that inital acceleration be? I'm afraid I'm dredging my memory to get simple kinematic equations, let alone relativistic ones.

Maybe we need a math thread to help get us all back up to speed.

[Captain Seafort]

Perhaps 30 minutes for a ship the size of the Enterprise. What is the acceleration of a torpedo or probe? Why could you not design a small projectile with a higher acceleration?

Perhaps they simply don't have that sort of propulsive technology available. They're certainly got a good enough power supply, given that they can perform such feats, but their engines can't use it, so they have to use it to reduce the ship's apparant mass. It's an extremely clunky solution at best, but it's borne out by "Deja Q" - they expected the impulse engines to take about seven hours to accelerate a mass of 2.5 million tons by 4 km/s. The E-D masses about 4-5 million tons. That's how important the mass-lightening is.

Speed could even be knocked down and you would still be able to get over that 400GW easy.

NOTE: The figures that follow ignore relativity, and so will be innacurate, but I've no idea how to correct them so I'll throw them out anyway.

Assumptions: a PT masses 100kg, the mass-lightening ratio is 26000:1 (as in "Deja Q") and is 2m long.

Basic equations used:

E = mv²/2, P = E/t, t = l/v

Therefore, v³ = 2Pl/m

Plug the numbers in, and you find that the PT has to have a relative speed of about .25c for the KE of the impact to be equivalent to 400 GW. We never see torps moving anything like this speed, and the above calculations show that even a starship, moving under fractional warp power, would take half an hour or so to achieve this.

Or it goes to show that the fragment had signifigant power to destroy the ships no matter how well there shield take KE attacks.

As I've already pointed out, the momentum shift would have been minimal, given how slowly the fragment was travelling.

We never see this anywhere else in the movie or in canon. Plus even if the point of view was moving with the ships you would still be able to see some movement in the background. Then right after the impact is finished we see a wider shot and it is clear the ships are no longer moving.

Are you honestly daft enough to think you be able to spot movement against a backdrop that's millions of kilometres, if not light years away?

The Scimitars attempt to back up should have only served to increase the two ships velocity, instead we see the E-E stay put as if anchored.

Wrong - all it would have to do would be to move relative to the E-E. Any movement relative to an external point would be irrelevent.

In the large battles during the Dominion war we also see ships rammed, those ships don't move.

They move alright - in about a thousand different directions simultaneously.

[m52nickerson]

Perhaps they simply don't have that sort of propulsive technology available. They're certainly got a good enough power supply, given that they can perform such feats, but their engines can't use it, so they have to use it to reduce the ship's apparant mass. It's an extremely clunky solution at best, but it's borne out by "Deja Q" - they expected the impulse engines to take about seven hours to accelerate a mass of 2.5 million tons by 4 km/s. The E-D masses about 4-5 million tons. That's how important the mass-lightening is.

This does show the importance of mass-lightening.......with large massive objects, which a torpedo is not.

NOTE: The figures that follow ignore relativity, and so will be innacurate, but I've no idea how to correct them so I'll throw them out anyway.

Assumptions: a PT masses 100kg, the mass-lightening ratio is 26000:1 (as in "Deja Q") and is 2m long.

Basic equations used:

E = mv²/2, P = E/t, t = l/v

Therefore, v³ = 2Pl/m

Plug the numbers in, and you find that the PT has to have a relative speed of about .25c for the KE of the impact to be equivalent to 400 GW. We never see torps moving anything like this speed, and the above calculations show that even a starship, moving under fractional warp power, would take half an hour or so to achieve this.

400GW is the magic number. Plus you said it your self we see a torpedo go to warp. We also have never heard that a ship could not launch torpedoes while at 0.25c. No matter how long it take to get up to that speed, this type of attack could still be used as a first strike. A cloak would make that even more possible.

As I've already pointed out, the momentum shift would have been minimal, given how slowly the fragment was travelling.

If the momentum shift was so low how did the fragment destroy the Tsikovsky, and threaten to destroy the E-D?

Are you honestly daft enough to think you be able to spot movement against a backdrop that's millions of kilometres, if not light years away?

You know for certain that the clouds in the nebula are that far away? If we can't reliy on that point of view being from a fixed position that it could be argued that the observed speeds of ships at impulse may not be correct. If the point of view was moving, but just at less of a rate then the ship it would look like the ships are going slower then they are.

Wrong - all it would have to do would be to move relative to the E-E. Any movement relative to an external point would be irrelevent.

Seeing that both ships would have been moving after the impact, both would have continued to move backwards. The Scimitars the only way the Scimitar could have pulled away from the E-E is if the power required to pull away from the E-E was less then to accelerate both ships. We see the Scimitar struggle at first to pull away, we would not see that if the E-E was not somehow anchored.

They move alright - in about a thousand different directions simultaneously.

....but the center of the impact does not move from the original spot, nor does the fireball.

[Mikey]

I'll continue to let you two slug it out, but based on my limited knowledge I wanted to address this:

....but the center of the impact does not move from the original spot, nor does the fireball.

I don't think that matters - as long as the fragments carry away the same momentum in sum as was imparted to the once-whole ship, conservation of momentum is preserved.

[m52nickerson]

I'll continue to let you two slug it out, but based on my limited knowledge I wanted to address this:

....but the center of the impact does not move from the original spot, nor does the fireball.

I don't think that matters - as long as the fragments carry away the same momentum in sum as was imparted to the once-whole ship, conservation of momentum is preserved.

I don't know, I would think that as soon as the impact happend some of the energy would go to move the Kilngon ship back so the whole mass of metal and fire would start moving back.

[Mikey]

Imagine a billiards cue knocking into two other balls. The total momentum of the two would have to equal the original momentum of the cue; but they wouldn't go in a direction completely opposite to that of the cue.

[Captain Seafort]

This does show the importance of mass-lightening.......with large massive objects, which a torpedo is not.

It shows the importance of mass lightening full stop. The torp is far less masive, but it's also got far smaller thrusters.

Plus you said it your self we see a torpedo go to warp.

My numbers are certainly innacurate, due to relativity not being taken into account. At least I didn't try to calculate KE for a superluminal impact.

We also have never heard that a ship could not launch torpedoes while at 0.25c. No matter how long it take to get up to that speed, this type of attack could still be used as a first strike. A cloak would make that even more possible.

It could very well be effective in those circumstances, and may be a tactic that's used. However, the engagements we see all show PTs moving far more slowly.

If the momentum shift was so low how did the fragment destroy the Tsikovsky, and threaten to destroy the E-D?

As I've already pointed out, it shows how crap Fed ships are at withstanding physical impacts.

You know for certain that the clouds in the nebula are that far away?

Far enough away that, changes in perspective aside, the backdrop remained static throughout the battle. This isn't the Mutara Nebula or the Briar Patch we're talking about.

If we can't reliy on that point of view being from a fixed position that it could be argued that the observed speeds of ships at impulse may not be correct. If the point of view was moving, but just at less of a rate then the ship it would look like the ships are going slower then they are.

If only one ship was visible, or if the ships were moving in the same direction, sure. It does not, however, apply to any of the many incidents in which ships were observed closing on each other at very low relative speeds.

Seeing that both ships would have been moving after the impact, both would have continued to move backwards. The Scimitars the only way the Scimitar could have pulled away from the E-E is if the power required to pull away from the E-E was less then to accelerate both ships. We see the Scimitar struggle at first to pull away, we would not see that if the E-E was not somehow anchored.

And how exactly would being stationary relative to some external reference point make any difference whatsoever? If the E-E was anchored it would still have been dragged along whether the ships were stationary or in motion relative to that random reference.

[m52nickerson]

Imagine a billiards cue knocking into two other balls. The total momentum of the two would have to equal the original momentum of the cue; but they wouldn't go in a direction completely opposite to that of the cue.

Your right the Klingon ship should have been pushed in the same direction as the Dominion ship was going. We don't see that.

[Captain Seafort]

We do see that - bits of it at least. All that matters is that the sum vector momentum of the debris is zero, regardless of where individual pieces go.

[Mikey]

Seafort mentioned a ship being fragmented, rather than remaining intact and being pushed backward. That's what I was referring to. Even if a central piece remained, if fragments carreid away the sum total of momentum of the impacting body, that central piece would remain stationary.

[m52nickerson]

It shows the importance of mass lightening full stop. The torp is far less masive, but it's also got far smaller thrusters.

....but unless we know the power of these thrusters we can't say for sure. It goes back to the question if KE attacks really are so effective in dropping shields we don't see them developed?

My numbers are certainly innacurate, due to relativity not being taken into account. At least I didn't try to calculate KE for a superluminal impact.

I was never going to atempt that.

It could very well be effective in those circumstances, and may be a tactic that's used. However, the engagements we see all show PTs moving far more slowly.

I give it to you we see them moving very slowly. The question is why we never see that tactic, it would be perfect to take down the shields of a starbase.

As I've already pointed out, it shows how crap Fed ships are at withstanding physical impacts.

If that was true they would have to have their shields up at all times, any little bit of stuff moving through space would be a danger. All in all I don't see this example pointing out how shields are weak against KE attacks, especially since the Tsikovsky did not have shields up.

If only one ship was visible, or if the ships were moving in the same direction, sure. It does not, however, apply to any of the many incidents in which ships were observed closing on each other at very low relative speeds.

We would be able to tell how fast they were moving towards or away from each other, but their overall speeds would still be in question.

And how exactly would being stationary relative to some external reference point make any difference whatsoever? If the E-E was anchored it would still have been dragged along whether the ships were stationary or in motion relative to that random reference.

Had the ships already been in motion when the Scimitar tried to back away and separate itself it would have over come the forward motion of the E-E plus the force needed to separate the ships. Then after the ships pull away we see them maintain a constant distance until the E-E starts to limp away. Had the Scimitar just stopped after pulling away the E-E's momentum would have pushed it right back to the Scimitar. If the Scimitar would have just shut down its engines it would have continued moving away from the E-E because its velocity was greater. Nether happens.

[m52nickerson]

We do see that - bits of it at least. All that matters is that the sum vector momentum of the debris is zero, regardless of where individual pieces go.

Seafort mentioned a ship being fragmented, rather than remaining intact and being pushed backward. That's what I was referring to. Even if a central piece remained, if fragments carreid away the sum total of momentum of the impacting body, that central piece would remain stationary.

Point taken!

By the way this weekend I most likely not have very much time to post, if at all. Please don't think I have run away from this discussion.

[Captain Seafort]

...but unless we know the power of these thrusters we can't say for sure.

They can't have a far higher mass-power ratio than a ship's impulse engines, or they'd be used in large numbers as impulse engines.

It goes back to the question if KE attacks really are so effective in dropping shields we don't see them developed?

Probably because in the vast majority of battles commanders don't have the time or space available to spend half an hour working up to .25c. Not to mention that, while a KE attack is more effective, phasers and PTs are hardly ineffective - they're chucking around weapons equal to our most powerful nukes like confetti.

I was never going to atempt that.

Then why did you even bring up the warp-speed torps.

I give it to you we see them moving very slowly. The question is why we never see that tactic, it would be perfect to take down the shields of a starbase.

*shrugs* Maybe they don't like to waste time working up to a quarter lightspeed. Maybe their targeting isn't as good at that speed. Maybe they're just stupid. I don't know.

If that was true they would have to have their shields up at all times, any little bit of stuff moving through space would be a danger.

They do - ever heard of the navigational deflector?

All in all I don't see this example pointing out how shields are weak against KE attacks, especially since the Tsikovsky did not have shields up.

Whether their shields were up or down would only affect how the momentum was distributed - it would still have to withstand it.

IfWe would be able to tell how fact they were moving towards or away from each other, but their overall speeds would still be in question.

That's why I specifically mentioned ships moving in opposite directions (the Jem'Hadar and Klingons closing on each other at 1st Chin'toka for example).

Had the ships already been in motion when the Scimitar tried to back away and separate itself it would have over come the forward motion of the E-E plus the force needed to separate the ships.

No it wouldn't, because the ships were stationary relative to each other.

Then after the ships pull away we see them maintain a constant distance until the E-E starts to limp away. Had the Scimitar just stopped after pulling away the E-E's momentum would have pushed it right back to the Scimitar. If the Scimitar would have just shut down its engines it would have continued moving away from the E-E because its velocity was greater. Nether happens.

Therefore the Scimitar must have fired its aft engines to bring itself to relative stop in front of the E-E. This is true regardless of the ships' motion relative to an external object.