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Tyyr wrote:Oh f**k, not this again.

Eh. I haven't been there when said debate happened, so it's not like I know the arguments that have already been thrown around, no?

And Captain Seaford, pure-canon wise, there is only a point of divergence, and it's the Kelvin's destruction. Nothing to indicate otherwise.

SolkaTruesilver wrote:Eh. I haven't been there when said debate happened, so it's not like I know the arguments that have already been thrown around, no?

Doesn't stop it from being a retread of an argument that was had long ago.

If you want to plunge pig headedly into this thing then your argument is that Starfleet had the ability to create ships bigger than anything we've seen Starfleet ever do*. Then for some totally unexplained reason they decided to start making starships less than a tenth the previous size and only now are starting to get anywhere near duplicating the size of ship they could produce over a hundred years before.

*Remember, the Neo-E isn't even the biggest ship in the fleet. Remember the debris field around Vulcan and the truly titanic sized saucer the Neo-E had to dodge?

Tyyr wrote: If you want to plunge pig headedly into this thing then your argument is that Starfleet had the ability to create ships bigger than anything we've seen Starfleet ever do*. Then for some totally unexplained reason they decided to start making starships less than a tenth the previous size and only now are starting to get anywhere near duplicating the size of ship they could produce over a hundred years before.

I don't get that argument?

SolkaTruesilver wrote: And Captain Seaford, pure-canon wise, there is only a point of divergence, and it's the Kelvin's destruction. Nothing to indicate otherwise.

I've heard this said before, and I don't understand the rationale. IIRC, it was never stated in the film that the Kelvin's destruction was the point of divergence between the prime universe and the Abramsverse. Not only is there no substantive canon for the PoD, the film itself indicates that the PoD is considerably earlier: most tellingly, the fact that a ship the size of the neo-E - far beyond the ken of prime-universe Starfleet - was already out of R&D, debugged, prototyped, and well into a main production run... a process that could easily take decades.

Mikey wrote: I've heard this said before, and I don't understand the rationale. IIRC, it was never stated in the film that the Kelvin's destruction was the point of divergence between the prime universe and the Abramsverse. Not only is there no substantive canon for the PoD, the film itself indicates that the PoD is considerably earlier: most tellingly, the fact that a ship the size of the neo-E - far beyond the ken of prime-universe Starfleet - was already out of R&D, debugged, prototyped, and well into a main production run... a process that could easily take decades.

It did take decades. The Enterprise just been commissioned during the Vulcan attack (I think they mention "the new Flagship"). 2 decades, which doesn't make it far-fetched for an organisation with as much tech and science capacity as the Federation.

Something I just thought of, maybe instead of building more of a lot of little ships, they decided to build less of a lot of big ships. Then it would be easier to accomplish the feat of such large ships due to not trying to pump out a ton of small ships.

SolkaTruesilver wrote:I don't get that argument?

The Kelvin is a very large ship. The NCC-1701 in TOS is not. Mass wise the TOS Enterprise is at best maybe 1/5th the Kelvin's tonnage and the Kelvin is probably the smallest Federation ship we see in XI. The Neo-E is significantly larger still, 20 times the TOS ship's tonnage, and we see at least one ship that's even larger than the Neo-E.

So the Federation at the time of the Narrada's appearance is capable of producing ships that are tremendously larger, more than an order of magnitude larger, than the ships we see in TOS. Yet for some reason Starfleet goes from producing these huge ships and suddenly starts making them comparatively tiny and KEEPS making them tiny even up until "present" day in the time line when they're still making ships that are smaller than they could make over a century before.

That's what suggesting that the point of divergence is the Narada's appearance leads to.

Indeed. Even taking into account this argument:

SolkaTruesilver wrote:

Mikey wrote: I've heard this said before, and I don't understand the rationale. IIRC, it was never stated in the film that the Kelvin's destruction was the point of divergence between the prime universe and the Abramsverse. Not only is there no substantive canon for the PoD, the film itself indicates that the PoD is considerably earlier: most tellingly, the fact that a ship the size of the neo-E - far beyond the ken of prime-universe Starfleet - was already out of R&D, debugged, prototyped, and well into a main production run... a process that could easily take decades.

It did take decades. The Enterprise just been commissioned during the Vulcan attack (I think they mention "the new Flagship"). 2 decades, which doesn't make it far-fetched for an organisation with as much tech and science capacity as the Federation.

then Starfleet would still have to have both a history and a capacity of building ships that size; ergo, they must have been the Abramsverse Starfleet for some time.

Didn't someone come up with First Contact as a possible point of divergence? Cochran was a pretty influential figure after First Contact, his experiences could well have influenced the future.

kostmayer wrote:Didn't someone come up with First Contact as a possible point of divergence? Cochran was a pretty influential figure after First Contact, his experiences could well have influenced the future.

Yep, in one of our prior conversations. IIRC, it was a fairly convincing argument, too.

SolkaTruesilver wrote:And Captain Seaford, pure-canon wise, there is only a point of divergence, and it's the Kelvin's destruction. Nothing to indicate otherwise.

1) It's Seafort, idiot, with a 't'. Learn to spell it right.

2) The Kelvin's destruction is a point of divergence.

3) There's plenty of evidence to indicate another PoD - the size of the neo-E being the strongest.

Tyyr wrote:Oh f**k, not this again.

This again. We can add it to the same list as the purpose of Starfleet, the role of the GCS, MVAM and Borg drone KE shields.

Tyyr wrote:*Remember, the Neo-E isn't even the biggest ship in the fleet. Remember the debris field around Vulcan and the truly titanic sized saucer the Neo-E had to dodge?

That wasn't necessarily from a ship - it might have been from a space station such as the one we saw over Earth.

Mikey wrote:

kostmayer wrote:Didn't someone come up with First Contact as a possible point of divergence? Cochran was a pretty influential figure after First Contact, his experiences could well have influenced the future.

Yep, in one of our prior conversations. IIRC, it was a fairly convincing argument, too.

It's certainly a possibility, but there isn't enough evidence to pin the PoD down to a specific event, merely that it was a long time before the Kelvin incident. It might well have been an event we never heard of in the Geneverse.

Indeed, I recall making the point that even the span of time depicted in FC was far to broad to call "the" PoD, and that it was probably impossible to pinpoint the exact point. However, I just mentioned it to validate Kostmayer's post and to indicate that there arguments for earlier PoD's at least as strong as the one for the Kelvin's destruction being the point.

Captain Seafort wrote:1) It's Seafort, idiot, with a 't'. Learn to spell it right.

Man, you're going to need some industrial-sized tongs to get your panties out of a bunch today.

Captain Seafort wrote:

Tyyr wrote:*Remember, the Neo-E isn't even the biggest ship in the fleet. Remember the debris field around Vulcan and the truly titanic sized saucer the Neo-E had to dodge?

That wasn't necessarily from a ship - it might have been from a space station such as the one we saw over Earth.

I agree with SeaEdsel on this one. It could certainly have been a station.

Tsukiyumi wrote:SeaEdsel

Too easy?