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Rochey wrote:Stalin would probably take the opertunity to invade Germany while the Nazi war machine is on the other side of the planet. In which case Berlin falls rather quickly due to the serious lack of soldiers and tanks available to stop the tide of Soviet forces.

IIRC, Russia wasn'n communist in Storm Front - Lenin got killed, and the assasian vanished "into thin air"
Adittionally, the nazis managed to capture Moscow.
Still, the whole "nazis invade US" thing is inplausible, I would personally like to see the Na'kuhl supported US Army invading europe.
It would be a nice plot twist.

Rochey wrote:Yeah, still not possible. They'd have needed to massively build up their navy to combat the USN, and they'd have needed to construct a hell of a lot of transport ships to get across the Atlantic. Also, the Luftwaffe's numbers would need to be seriously increased.
In addition to that, they'd need to start recruiting a lot more troops to take on the US Army. Those numbers simply aren't available in Germany. You'd need to start conscripting people from the countries you've conquered, and they're going to be far from reliable in combat (they'd probably desert or defect the first chance they get).

Even assuming you somehow manage that and get a foothold in the US, Stalin would probably take the opertunity to invade Germany while the Nazi war machine is on the other side of the planet. In which case Berlin falls rather quickly due to the serious lack of soldiers and tanks available to stop the tide of Soviet forces.

Yeah, by 1944 the Allies basically ruled the Atlantic by air and sea. Any German effort to invade would require a massive buildup of sealift and warships, including carriers. The Allies simply had to much of a head start, they could easily counter any German naval buildup. Thats one of the reasons why the much vaunted Plan Z was a crock, the RN already had a huge lead on the German Navy and could simply step up new builds to stay ahead.

Cpl Kendall wrote:Thats one of the reasons why the much vaunted Plan Z was a crock, the RN already had a huge lead on the German Navy and could simply step up new builds to stay ahead.

Plus the fact that the Germans could never have produced enough steel to make the plan work - it took them over a decade to build up the Hochseeflotte, numerically comparable to the plan Z fleet but comprised of ships half the size of the H class, while Hitler wanted the plan Z fleet built in half the time. This with the army and Luftwaffe competing for resources - competition the Hochseeflotte never had.

Had the war held off till 1945 they could probably have had two Scharnhorsts (perhaps with 15" guns), two Bismarcks, two or three of the H class, and a couple of carriers. They'd have been up against a refitted Hood, five KGVs, four Lions, the Ark and six armoured carriers, even if you only count the truly modern ships.

I liked seeing the Enterprise flying around Midtown Manhattan

thelordharry wrote:I liked seeing the Enterprise flying around Midtown Manhattan

So did I.

Captain Seafort wrote:

Cpl Kendall wrote:Thats one of the reasons why the much vaunted Plan Z was a crock, the RN already had a huge lead on the German Navy and could simply step up new builds to stay ahead.

Plus the fact that the Germans could never have produced enough steel to make the plan work - it took them over a decade to build up the Hochseeflotte, numerically comparable to the plan Z fleet but comprised of ships half the size of the H class, while Hitler wanted the plan Z fleet built in half the time. This with the army and Luftwaffe competing for resources - competition the Hochseeflotte never had.

Had the war held off till 1945 they could probably have had two Scharnhorsts (perhaps with 15" guns), two Bismarcks, two or three of the H class, and a couple of carriers. They'd have been up against a refitted Hood, five KGVs, four Lions, the Ark and six armoured carriers, even if you only count the truly modern ships.

Even then, I believe we had a considerably larger force of medium and light cruisers as well as destroyers to counter them with. The County and Crown Colony class were fairly numerous and we had loads of small destroyers knocking about. Plus the older pre-wwII battleships.

Reliant121 wrote:Even then, I believe we had a considerably larger force of medium and light cruisers as well as destroyers to counter them with. The County and Crown Colony class were fairly numerous and we had loads of small destroyers knocking about. Plus the older pre-wwII battleships.

Exactly - I was limiting the comparison to the heavy forces mainly to give the Germans the benefit of the doubt. Even had the Germans completed plan Z and the RN only completed those ships it actually did, the Germans would still have been ounumbered. As I pointed out above, there's no way the Kriegsmarine could have done so, given the internal competition it faced, and it's inconceivable that the RN would have been restricted to it's limited wartime cruiser building programme (although its superiority in destroyers and escorts would probably be reduced from "incomprehensible" to merely "overwhelming").

So if you were in Vosk's position, what could you do to help the Germans win WWII?

The best I can think of is to work on giving Germany atomic bombs. A good simple A Bomb design should be child's play to the Na'kul, and if they convinced Hitler to put enough resources into it early enough, along with accelerating rocket research... V1s and V2s armed with nuclear warheads would certainly let the Germans conquer the whole of Europe, Russia, and North Africa.

Still no way to invade America, though. BUT I seem to recall Germany had plans to launch V2s from submarines. German SSBs launching atom bombs at US coastal cities?

Certainly V1s or something like them could be launched from ships... a German fleet atom bombing any US forces that came close to them? Openly parading up and down the coast?

Would the US surrender, do you think?

Any one here read Fatherland - its a detective story set in an alternate timeline where the Germans win the war against the US and Great Britain, but are still involved in an ongoing conflict with surviving regions of the USSR. I'm too lazy (and have too poor a memory) to describe how they win, so I'll just paste it from Wikipedia :-

"Throughout the novel, Harris gradually explains the historical development of the society. According to the novel's version of history, the German armies on the Eastern Front are stopped at the gates of Moscow at the end of 1941, as in our history. Defeated in battle but not demoralised, they launch a second major offensive into the Caucasus in 1942, cutting the flow of oil to the Red Army. The first point of divergence is that this second offensive is far more successful. With its armies immobilised, the Soviet Union surrenders in 1943.

The second major point of divergence is that around the same time, German intelligence (in a way never explained) learns the British have cracked the Enigma code, which is leading to the sinking of their submarines. They withdraw their submarines from the Atlantic temporarily and send false intelligence to lure the British fleet to destruction. The U-Boat campaign against the United Kingdom resumes, starving Britain into accepting a humiliating armistice in 1944. Winston Churchill, King George VI and other prominent British officials are forced into exile in Canada. Edward VIII regains the throne at the helm of a pro-German puppet government.

Germany tests its first atom bomb in 1946, and fires a "V-3" missile that explodes above New York City, to demonstrate Germany's ability to attack the continental United States with long-range missiles. Following this demonstration of power, the United States signs a peace treaty with Germany. This results in the Third Reich being one of the two superpowers of the world, along with the US, which defeated Japan, reflecting the actual history of the war.

Having achieved victory in Europe, Germany annexes Eastern Europe and most of the western Soviet Union into the Greater German Reich. Following the signing of the Treaty of Rome, Western Europe and Scandinavia are corralled into a pro-German trading bloc, the European Community. The surviving areas of the USSR become engaged in an endless guerrilla war with German forces in the Ural Mountains. Mounting casualties (at least 100,000 since 1960 stated in the novel and that the bodies have to be shipped back to Germany in the dead of night), have sapped the German military despite Hitler's earlier statement (quoted in the novel) about a perpetual war to keep the German people on their toes, like in the novel 1984. By 1964, the United States and the Greater German Reich are caught in a Cold War and an arms race to develop more sophisticated nuclear weapons and space technology."

I've probably read this book more times then any other (with the possible exception of Dune)

Even then. Remember that the US was sending out B29's and had built a very large fleet of its own. All of this would require the USN to wipped out first. Plus if Germany started nuking everyone the fallout would reck their own country.

kostmayer wrote:Any one here read Fatherland - its a detective story set in an alternate timeline where the Germans win the war against the US and Great Britain, but are still involved in an ongoing conflict with surviving regions of the USSR. I'm too lazy (and have too poor a memory) to describe how they win, so I'll just paste it from Wikipedia :-

"Throughout the novel, Harris gradually explains the historical development of the society. According to the novel's version of history, the German armies on the Eastern Front are stopped at the gates of Moscow at the end of 1941, as in our history. Defeated in battle but not demoralised, they launch a second major offensive into the Caucasus in 1942, cutting the flow of oil to the Red Army. The first point of divergence is that this second offensive is far more successful. With its armies immobilised, the Soviet Union surrenders in 1943.

The second major point of divergence is that around the same time, German intelligence (in a way never explained) learns the British have cracked the Enigma code, which is leading to the sinking of their submarines. They withdraw their submarines from the Atlantic temporarily and send false intelligence to lure the British fleet to destruction. The U-Boat campaign against the United Kingdom resumes, starving Britain into accepting a humiliating armistice in 1944. Winston Churchill, King George VI and other prominent British officials are forced into exile in Canada. Edward VIII regains the throne at the helm of a pro-German puppet government.

Germany tests its first atom bomb in 1946, and fires a "V-3" missile that explodes above New York City, to demonstrate Germany's ability to attack the continental United States with long-range missiles. Following this demonstration of power, the United States signs a peace treaty with Germany. This results in the Third Reich being one of the two superpowers of the world, along with the US, which defeated Japan, reflecting the actual history of the war.

Having achieved victory in Europe, Germany annexes Eastern Europe and most of the western Soviet Union into the Greater German Reich. Following the signing of the Treaty of Rome, Western Europe and Scandinavia are corralled into a pro-German trading bloc, the European Community. The surviving areas of the USSR become engaged in an endless guerrilla war with German forces in the Ural Mountains. Mounting casualties (at least 100,000 since 1960 stated in the novel and that the bodies have to be shipped back to Germany in the dead of night), have sapped the German military despite Hitler's earlier statement (quoted in the novel) about a perpetual war to keep the German people on their toes, like in the novel 1984. By 1964, the United States and the Greater German Reich are caught in a Cold War and an arms race to develop more sophisticated nuclear weapons and space technology."

I've probably read this book more times then any other (with the possible exception of Dune)

Makes it sound like the author didn't put much thought into the US. I don't see the US just sitting there and not returning the favor seeing our nukes started off the rack in 1944. Two years before the NAZI program in the book. I think I'll skip this one.

PS,
The Dune Series is amazing. Herbert put thought into his stories. Not just about the lead character but about the Universe as a whole!!!!

I love Dune. Despite my ever growing to-read list, its one of those books that I feel the need to go back and read for now the ninth time I think. Didn't like the series that much.

So if you were in Vosk's position, what could you do to help the Germans win WWII?

The best I can think of is to work on giving Germany atomic bombs. A good simple A Bomb design should be child's play to the Na'kul, and if they convinced Hitler to put enough resources into it early enough, along with accelerating rocket research... V1s and V2s armed with nuclear warheads would certainly let the Germans conquer the whole of Europe, Russia, and North Africa.

Still no way to invade America, though. BUT I seem to recall Germany had plans to launch V2s from submarines. German SSBs launching atom bombs at US coastal cities?

Certainly V1s or something like them could be launched from ships... a German fleet atom bombing any US forces that came close to them? Openly parading up and down the coast?

Would the US surrender, do you think?
So if you were in Vosk's position, what could you do to help the Germans win WWII?

The best I can think of is to work on giving Germany atomic bombs. A good simple A Bomb design should be child's play to the Na'kul, and if they convinced Hitler to put enough resources into it early enough, along with accelerating rocket research... V1s and V2s armed with nuclear warheads would certainly let the Germans conquer the whole of Europe, Russia, and North Africa.

Still no way to invade America, though. BUT I seem to recall Germany had plans to launch V2s from submarines. German SSBs launching atom bombs at US coastal cities?

Certainly V1s or something like them could be launched from ships... a German fleet atom bombing any US forces that came close to them? Openly parading up and down the coast?

Would the US surrender, do you think?

Aye, giving A-bombs to the Nazis is the only real way of allowing them to take Europe and Russia, though even then there'd be heavy casualties.

As for the US, the Luftwaffe had at least one plane that could make a trip to the eastern coast of the US, IIRC. I believe it was being tested when the war ended. If they made a few of those and loaded them up with nukes, you can say goodbye to New York. I doubt the US would continue a war against such power.

If Germany wanted to conquer the US, rather than just defeat them, the answer would be giant transports capable of projecting German forces to the US. It's not a question of armament tech, because Germany was squarely ahead of the US in that regard.

just not like the messerschmidt 323 gigant.
i love the dune books,have the full series minus 'paul of dune' and keep reading them, in their minutae are as detailed as anything that tolkien proposed