STVI Questions

[Lazar]

"She's packing quite a wallop!" <-- The only explanation we ever got.

The only thing I could think of was that maybe, in STVI continuity at least, shields only defended against energy weapons, so Chang intended to cripple the ship with torpedoes and then finish them off with disruptors. Of course, I would expect a photon torpedo to be more powerful than what was depicted in the movie - the Enterprise was able to sustain about half a dozen hits and still remain operational.

Simple - they were hitting hull-hugging shields, not the hull. Note that through most of the battle only superficial external damage was visible, and it was only after Scotty's warning that the shields were collapsing that serious structural damage occured - the torp that punched a hole through the saucer.

Hmm, that could work. It would be consistent with Spock's statement that "the hull has been compromised".

[Mark]

Actually, we never saw any evidence that Chang's BoP even COULD fire her disruptors while cloaked. Only her torps.

[Captain Seafort]

Actually, we never saw any evidence that Chang's BoP even COULD fire her disruptors while cloaked. Only her torps.

The novelisation includes a mention of the BoP attacking a Federation colony with disruptor fire while cloaked, but you're right that there's no such evidence in the canon.

[Mark]

What I could never understand is, couldn't they SEE where the torps were originating from? I mean, suddenly, a torp is on sensors out of nowhere, I'd spray phaser fire around the first place I saw that torp pop up and at least TRY and get lucky.

[Captain Seafort]

What I could never understand is, couldn't they SEE where the torps were originating from? I mean, suddenly, a torp is on sensors out of nowhere, I'd spray phaser fire around the first place I saw that torp pop up and at least TRY and get lucky.

Their sensors probably aren't good enough to pinpoint a torpedo's origin point without additional information. Kronos One's weren't accurate enough to show that the torpedoes that hit her were fired from below the E-A, not the E-A herself. At a guess I'd hazzard that the warnings they got weren't from detecting the torpedoes, but target lock warnings of the torps sensors, the same way modern military aircraft get missile warnings. If Chang was at all competent he'd set the torps so they'd only go active once they were a good distance from the launch point.

[kostmayer]

That might be why he didn't use disruptors - he'd be firing in a more continuos fashion, and usually pointed near enough at the Enterprise. It wouldn't be as difficult to trace the path of the blasts back to Chang's ship.

Using torpedoes, Chang could fire one from pretty much anywhere, and be out of the way by the time the Enterprise had time to track the torpedo.

Even the Enterprise E couldn't trace the path of theSchimitar's weapons accurately enough to fire back and hit it. That ship was bigger, firing more often, and (I'd imagine) not quite as manouevearable as Chang's ship.

[Captain Picard's Hair]

The movie portrays the BoP as partially decloaking just for an instant at the moment of firing, but per Seafort's points that is also likely too brief to be spotted and targeted.

[Graham Kennedy]

Even if the ship itself wasn't visible on sensors, surely the torp in flight would be. So wherever the torp appears, you work out its vector, track back a half second or so, and bracket that area with phaser fire. Starfleet would surely work along those lines as a way to counter the Klingon advance, and might well have success - assuming they could get the lock on and fire cycle down to a second or so.

Then again, there are things the BoP could do against this. Instead of flying a straight course towards the enemy they could fly a tight, fast arc, firing the torpedo in the fraction of a second when the tangent to the arc lines up on the firing bearing. That way the Starfleet ship will calculate an incorrect position for your location and shoot in the wrong place.

I'd say that the fact that we never see the whole cloak-fire ship thing again indicates that Starfleet pretty quickly gained a decisive advantage over these things, though.

[Captain Seafort]

I'd say that the fact that we never see the whole cloak-fire ship thing again indicates that Starfleet pretty quickly gained a decisive advantage over these things, though.

True, although not necessarily over the concept of cloaked-fire, but over the specific model. I think the most likely scenario is that new sensors were developed that could detect the gamma emissions ships of the time put out (as La Forge mentioned in "Emissary"), and the cloak modifications required to block those emissions also prevented weapons being fired. At least until the Orkbird showed up.

[Mark]

Excellent points, all.

[kostmayer]

I suppose unless you have the ability to fire and keep shields raised whilst cloaked, any method that allowed an enemy ship to land even 1 shot out of 5 on you would make firing whilst cloaked pretty dangerous.

[Sonic Glitch]

I'd say that the fact that we never see the whole cloak-fire ship thing again indicates that Starfleet pretty quickly gained a decisive advantage over these things, though.

I recall reading (admittadly a non-canon source, i just don't remember which one) that the bulges on the E-B housed sensor equipment which helped detected those advanced cloaks. I think the cloaking device/sensor war is like the submarine/sonar war. Someone builds a quieter submarine, someone builds a better passive sonar. Someone builds a better cloak, someone builds a better sensor, etc. An intergalactic came of one-upmanship.

[Captain Picard's Hair]

I'd say that the fact that we never see the whole cloak-fire ship thing again indicates that Starfleet pretty quickly gained a decisive advantage over these things, though.

I recall reading (admittadly a non-canon source, i just don't remember which one) that the bulges on the E-B housed sensor equipment which helped detected those advanced cloaks. I think the cloaking device/sensor war is like the submarine/sonar war. Someone builds a quieter submarine, someone builds a better passive sonar. Someone builds a better cloak, someone builds a better sensor, etc. An intergalactic came of one-upmanship.

Ahem... http://www.ditl.org/pagship.php?fedexcelsior

Notes : The first major subgroup of the Excelsior class, the Enterprise-B subtype was designed for greater burst speed and manoeuvrability than the standard Excelsior and carried a much more elaborate electronics fit. The intention was to counter the new generation of cloak capable vessels being deployed by the Klingon empire; Starfleet was especially worried about developments which might permit Klingon vessels to fire whilst still cloaked, and it was these in particular that the new type was designed to counter. Wake homing torpedoes were fitted as standard, while plasma detector systems allowed the new ship to locate almost any existing vessel through its cloak. The advanced sensors of the Enterprise-B were also able to engage vessels firing from cloak by automatically locking phasers onto the origin of the weapons fire and almost instantly laying down a pattern of fire on the immediate area before the enemy vessel could change its position. Although the plasma emission weakness was rapidly eliminated from Klingon cloaking devices, the automatic lock and fire system of the Enterprise-B subclass proved so successful in service that by 2310 the Klingons had been forced to abandon the whole idea of firing from behind the cloak and reverted back to using this device purely during approach and evasion operations.

Remember where you are?

[Sonic Glitch]

I'd say that the fact that we never see the whole cloak-fire ship thing again indicates that Starfleet pretty quickly gained a decisive advantage over these things, though.

I recall reading (admittadly a non-canon source, i just don't remember which one) that the bulges on the E-B housed sensor equipment which helped detected those advanced cloaks. I think the cloaking device/sensor war is like the submarine/sonar war. Someone builds a quieter submarine, someone builds a better passive sonar. Someone builds a better cloak, someone builds a better sensor, etc. An intergalactic came of one-upmanship.

Ahem... http://www.ditl.org/pagship.php?fedexcelsior

Notes : The first major subgroup of the Excelsior class, the Enterprise-B subtype was designed for greater burst speed and manoeuvrability than the standard Excelsior and carried a much more elaborate electronics fit. The intention was to counter the new generation of cloak capable vessels being deployed by the Klingon empire; Starfleet was especially worried about developments which might permit Klingon vessels to fire whilst still cloaked, and it was these in particular that the new type was designed to counter. Wake homing torpedoes were fitted as standard, while plasma detector systems allowed the new ship to locate almost any existing vessel through its cloak. The advanced sensors of the Enterprise-B were also able to engage vessels firing from cloak by automatically locking phasers onto the origin of the weapons fire and almost instantly laying down a pattern of fire on the immediate area before the enemy vessel could change its position. Although the plasma emission weakness was rapidly eliminated from Klingon cloaking devices, the automatic lock and fire system of the Enterprise-B subclass proved so successful in service that by 2310 the Klingons had been forced to abandon the whole idea of firing from behind the cloak and reverted back to using this device purely during approach and evasion operations.

Remember where you are?

...-clears throat-....Look! Over There! A Distraction!! -runs away-

...we need a "running away" icon..

[Mikey]

You mean, something like -

Yeah, pity we don't have that.