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Teaos wrote:All evedience points to them being very xenophobic.

And they didnt want to take us over they just wanted us gone. Elimainate life and a possible threat so they can go back to being the only species in known space.

When 8472 turned up again, first in the Hirogen episode and then with their Starfleet Academy simulation, they seemed a lot less hostile, and the 8472-Boothby was certainly not interested in wholesale slaughter of Voyager's crew. Given that they weren't in the middle of a war at the time, it's likely that those encounters better represent 8472's typical behaviour.

Or they were scared of the group that can turn them into dust.

True they may have mellowed a bit but at the time all the evidence Janeway had leed to the conclusion that they wanted to destroy life in our universe.

Or they were scared of the group that can turn them into dust.

Which is a normal reaction EXCEPT for a murderous bunch of xenophobic zealots.

True they may have mellowed a bit but at the time all the evidence Janeway had leed to the conclusion that they wanted to destroy life in our universe.

as I mentioned, upon their intial entry to our universe they might not have even known that all life in our universe meant more than the Borg. And again, "all the evidence Janeway had" is still a very small, limited, and circumstantial set.

Rochey wrote:What ships of that era have we seen? I don't really think we know enough to judge. (But yes, some could do with a touchup)

Setting a Trek in a far flung portion of the Federation with little direct interaction with Earth and the "core" would give them freedom to introduce all new stuff without betraying continuity like Enterprise did with reckless abandon. It's perfectly acceptable to my suspension of disbelief to suppose that in very distant portions of the Federation, entirely different designs of starships were used which we never saw near to Earth. After all the Federation is a large place with a lot of races, it would make sense if ships with more human dominated designs landscaped the area around Earth, perhaps designs more heavily influenced by another race in other parts of the Federation.

Capt. Jethro wrote:A nice twist in the plot would have been seeing Worf as commander of the Klingon vessel telling the Enterprise D to surrender.

Wouldn't Worf have been dead? The Ent-C defending Narendra III eased tensions with the Klingons and a Federation starship apparently came afterwards to help with the emergency response. That's how Worf was saved by humans and raised by them. No Ent-C, hostility with the Klingons, poor dead Worf.

Setting a Trek in a far flung portion of the Federation with little direct interaction with Earth and the "core" would give them freedom to introduce all new stuff without betraying continuity like Enterprise did with reckless abandon. It's perfectly acceptable to my suspension of disbelief to suppose that in very distant portions of the Federation, entirely different designs of starships were used which we never saw near to Earth. After all the Federation is a large place with a lot of races, it would make sense if ships with more human dominated designs landscaped the area around Earth, perhaps designs more heavily influenced by another race in other parts of the Federation.

Very good points. But hasn't the Federation showed a penchant for standardising everything possible? It'd be a bit odd if one end of the Federation had ships looking completely different from the other end, particularly given that they're made and run by the same organisation.

Rochey wrote:

Setting a Trek in a far flung portion of the Federation with little direct interaction with Earth and the "core" would give them freedom to introduce all new stuff without betraying continuity like Enterprise did with reckless abandon. It's perfectly acceptable to my suspension of disbelief to suppose that in very distant portions of the Federation, entirely different designs of starships were used which we never saw near to Earth. After all the Federation is a large place with a lot of races, it would make sense if ships with more human dominated designs landscaped the area around Earth, perhaps designs more heavily influenced by another race in other parts of the Federation.

Very good points. But hasn't the Federation showed a penchant for standardising everything possible? It'd be a bit odd if one end of the Federation had ships looking completely different from the other end, particularly given that they're made and run by the same organisation.

Yeah definitely it seems like components and parts and basic technology is definitely standardized. With the Federation as large as it is though, it would make sense that certain areas of the Federation have more or less access to certain metals, and certain areas of the Federation have larger or smaller shipyards. We've seen nothing to definitely prove or disprove that different starship designs are used in different areas, but if they went with that premise for a show it would at least be a credible break of continuity as opposed to just making crap up (and worse, breaking known canon) like Enterprise did.

Very well then.

There is precedent for this, as well. The Vulcan ships in TNG: "Unification" are clearly not typical Federation design. Granted they might not be Starfleet ships per se, but they are patently described as the ships of a UFP member species.

Re: Deepcrush's and Rochey's discussions in page 6 and 7 about the future of the UFP

There is a chance that the Klingon Civil War may have depleted the "sway" of the Great Houses and the period of conflict starting with the invasion of Cardassian territory may have had a very uniting affect.

Assuming they still thrived though, why wouldn't the Great Houses push Martok into claiming former Cardassian territories to recoup expenses?

The Cardassians had moved to a civilian government after the military government had grown so complacent as to allow the Maquis and Bajorans to force a retreat of Empire. Later the dictatorship brought in a devilish alien overlord who went about destroying and depopulating Cardassia Prime! The Cardassians have a big problem and the only one to aleviate it will be the Feds. Within a decade Cardassia will be another star on the UFP flag. That is going to be a source of conflict with the Klingons.

Zek might have started going crazy after the Wormhole Aliens started tampering with him but the "reforms" he did were for business and were tolerated by the rest of the Ferengi. When Zek did his radical changes he immediately retired and stuffed Rom into the hotseat. Rom isn't going to last, he will probably end up killing himself or being killed. The Ferengi learned their lesson not to invade the UFP but they have no need to let that sort of foolishness expand at their expense.

The Tholians used a ~20meter ship to challenge a Constitution. Thankfully they are isolationist.

The Breen really erred in the Dominion War. The Breen are now sandwiched between the ever pernicious Romulans and the triumphant Klingon Empire that knows how to negate Breen weapons. Their years of slave use won't win them any friends in the Federation either.

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J. vom Land der Ostern Blumen
Thol'yuns, hear your 'ssembly call you! ~ Up, lest worse than frost befall you! ~ To Webs! To Webs! To Webs, in Thol'ya! ~ Lo! All the tach'yun guards are lighted, let all hearts be now united! ~ To Webs ! To Webs! To Webs, in Thol'ya!

Advance the silk of Thol'ya Hurrah! Hurrah! ~ For Thol-i-a we take our stand, and live or die for Thol'ya! ~ To Webs! To Webs! and conquer peace for Thol'ya. ~ To Webs! To Webs and conquer peace for Thol'ya.

[quote]

The Cardassians had moved to a civilian government after the military government had grown so complacent as to allow the Maquis and Bajorans to force a retreat of Empire. [quote]

I do not think this was the reason. The occupation was costly and unpopular as far as I could tell from DS9. All the members of the resistance movement basically referred to Bajor as a mistake, and presumably they were the prime movers behind the discontent which ultimately overthrew the government. It was only after the Klingons put dire fear into the Cardassians of foreign invasion and ruined their military that the Cardassians considered Dominion membership.

Tholian_Avenger wrote:Assuming they still thrived though, why wouldn't the Great Houses push Martok into claiming former Cardassian territories to recoup expenses?

I think Martok has had enough history to be more Fed-friendly than most other, even pro-alliance chancellors and to avoid any sort of rash, Fed-disapproved maneuvers. In addition, I don't think the chancellor of the KE needs to worry about public mandate in the same way as a finite-term, elected public official.

Mikey wrote:

Tholian_Avenger wrote:Assuming they still thrived though, why wouldn't the Great Houses push Martok into claiming former Cardassian territories to recoup expenses?

I think Martok has had enough history to be more Fed-friendly than most other, even pro-alliance chancellors and to avoid any sort of rash, Fed-disapproved maneuvers. In addition, I don't think the chancellor of the KE needs to worry about public mandate in the same way as a finite-term, elected public official.

Agreed, Martok was sort of like an honorable, sensible soldier type as opposed to delusional glory-hungry politician as most of his predecessors were.

Forget conquest and glory, that was bled out by the Jem'Hadar. The Klingons took severe losses after three back to back wars (not counting that disasterous Civil War), their economy must be in the toilet. Do you not remember that one of the Great Houses had to marry a Ferengi to get solvent?

The Klingon Empire might have solved its severe resource problem after the Khitomer Accords but I can't see them being willing to pass up further resources. Didn't Section 31 say that it would take years for the Klingons to recover after the war?

I agree that Chancellors likely have a certain aloofness in answerability but they can also be killed. Have you ever heard of "voting from the roof tops" ?


Being that this is Star Wreck, I am heavily inclined to think the Cardies, Klingots, Rommies, Bajorans, and half the Gamma Quadrant will be joining the UFP very soon.

Until that happy nirvana is shown on screen, I am clinging tightly to my dreams of a Ron Moore future. And yes, I think the Moore, Ron is better than Beavis and Butt-Head.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. vom Land der Ostern Blumen
Thol'yuns, hear your 'ssembly call you! ~ Up, lest worse than frost befall you! ~ To Webs! To Webs! To Webs, in Thol'ya! ~ Lo! All the tach'yun guards are lighted, let all hearts be now united! ~ To Webs ! To Webs! To Webs, in Thol'ya!

Advance the silk of Thol'ya Hurrah! Hurrah! ~ For Thol-i-a we take our stand, and live or die for Thol'ya! ~ To Webs! To Webs! and conquer peace for Thol'ya. ~ To Webs! To Webs and conquer peace for Thol'ya.

I agree with your take on Ron D. Moore, but the UFP has laready shown that it is willing to oppose the Klingons against conquest for its own sake, and for the very reasons you mentioned I think the Klingons would recognize the fact that they're in no position to oppose the Feds just to pillage the Cardassians Empire.