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Mikey wrote:Actually, IIRC according to INS, isolytic subspace weapons were banned by the Khitomer Accord, not all subspace weapons. I could be wrong, though,

During the attack, La Forge states that "subspace weapons are unpredictable - that's why they were banned". In think Riker's statement was meant in the sense that the Son'a use isolytic weapons, isolytic weapons are a form of subspace weapon, and subspace weapons are banned.

me,myself and I wrote:WP?

White Phosphorous - it produces thick clouds of smoke when it burns, making it a excellent obscurant. It also produces extremely nasty burns when bits of it land on skin - they're initially only superficial, but because fragments of the stuff invariably stick, it keeps burning, resulting in very deep burns. For the latter reason it's illegal to use it in built-up areas, and against troop concentrations. However, both because it makes an effective smoke screen, and because of its use as an anti-personnel weapon, a lot of armies still use it - most recently the Israelis in the Gaza strip.

Supposedly they utilize Zero-point energy in their payload. I think that's the DS9TM tho, in "real life"? Who really knows? I think they're supposed to have higher yields/better effects on shields, etc.

Yes, the zero-point description is from the DS9TM, and so is non-canon. As for their usefulness, they must be more effective than PTs in some way, otherwise there'd be no point in having them. The question is how they're more effective.

Captain Seafort wrote:

Atekimogus wrote:Now wait a minute...I may be completely wrong on this but has the UFP not ruled out subspace weaponry? I do not remember the exact lines in Insurrection but wasn't there something about subspace-weapons beeing illegal?

There are two explanations for that; either a) the 2nd Khitomer Accords were signed after Voyager went into the Badlands, or b) they're 24th century WP - illegal but effective, so everyone uses them anyway.

It may also only apply to signatories using them against other signatories of the Accords. For example hollow point rounds are banned for use against soldiers but not against insurgents by one of the Geneva Conventions. It's safe to say that the Maquis are not signatory to anything, not even being the recognised government of the disputed colonies.

For the Quantum Torps, we can see how they were used in First Contact:

1) against the Borg cube
2) not against the Sphere as it was moving (Enterprise followed the Sphere through the time 'window' rather than Picard going "Mr Worf, open fire")
3) against the Sphere as it was orbiting Earth firing pathetic weaponry (seriously, if the Borg had wanted to stop First Contact, a low megaton nuke on top of the launch site would have done the trick)

So I'd argue that Quantorps have targeting issues against moving targets. Give them a bigger warhead to compensate, and they would be likely products of Commander Shelby's anti-Borg project. Borg cubes are large, nearly immobile structures, meaning all the guidance and maneuverability packages in a photon aren't needed, but given the borg regeneration, you want to do as much damge as possible.

Just to play devil's advocate, we don't know if Picard held fire until after following the sphere through the vortex because of issues with the QT's or because of a more general fire control issue. He didn't fire PT's at that time, either.

Mikey wrote:Just to play devil's advocate, we don't know if Picard held fire until after following the sphere through the vortex because of issues with the QT's or because of a more general fire control issue. He didn't fire PT's at that time, either.

Or because of interference from the vortex.

Or perhaps he realised that the Sphere would make it to the vortex before the torps caught up with it. Who knows.

Rochey wrote:Or perhaps he realised that the Sphere would make it to the vortex before the torps caught up with it. Who knows.

Or that.

I know i may be jumping on this a bit late, but in regards to the Jem Hadar bug ship hitting the Odyssey:

it is assumed that the fact that this was a fatal collision for the GCS is seen as a weakness neems absurd to me. i can't imagine any other ship taking such imidiate and chatostrophic damage surviving. true the impact was foward of the warp core but refering to the diagram i have in this post, it would have almost certainly reached the antimater storage pods. or at the very least diseupted power systems in the vicinity of the impact area. not to mention any secondary explosions cooking off from the torpedoes.

the aftermath


possible impact penetration?



and it may be that the impact was not purely the kenetic energy of the ship hitting, but the explosion of the antimatter on the bug ship, munitions, ect. an impact of another ship in the right area is devistating no matter what ship it is. even the soveriegn though survived the impact was devistades and if it werrent for picard and data the E-D would have been turned into a very large ashtray. and then thwere is in star trek first contact where picard states that a handheld phaser strike to the main deflector could cripple the ship from the rsulting explosion. now what if instead of a phaser blast. another starship strikes it instead.

I have always liked the Galaxy class ship. it is probably my favorate. its a damn shame it was made to look so pathetic in the show thanks to poor plot devices and special effects budgets. i still think its one of the most badass ships ever designed

That ram attack would have sent all kinds of debris and burning crap flying through the ship, I certainly have no problem believing why she went up. Chances are if she hadn't she might have been lost to fire.

Cpl Kendall wrote:That ram attack would have sent all kinds of debris and burning crap flying through the ship, I certainly have no problem believing why she went up. Chances are if she hadn't she might have been lost to fire.

well my post was mainly directed at the back and fourth arguing a few pages back. i would have quoted them but it would have just cluttered my post

Kevsha wrote: well my post was mainly directed at the back and fourth arguing a few pages back. i would have quoted them but it would have just cluttered my post

Yeah I know, sometimes I think people over think this issue.

I have been a detractor of the GCS in the past, but in this case I'm forced to agree with Kevsha. People have been focusing on the mere impact of the bug, and not the secondary effects of the collision. If you crash your car into a brick wall, you might not do catastrophic damage; but if your gas tank ruptures and explodes, you're in a world of trouble - whether or not the simple KE of the impact is what killed you is fairly irrelevant at that point.

Look what happened to the World Trade Centers. The impacts did not bring the towers down, the fire in combination with the damage from the impact did.

i think it would be a testiment to the design of the ship that it didn't buckle or collapse around the impact area,the space-frame remained solid. in later episodes in the dominion wars we see a bug ship collide with a Vorcha and it slices straight through it.

Aye, it seems likely that the AM pods were breached, causing the blast.

Of course, then we just have the stupidity of putting the pods litteraly right below the hull.