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Thorin wrote:

Deepcrush wrote: Thats just going to far. I think we need to stick to what is currently open for use. Tech that close by for study doesn't really count so much if we are looking at the short term.

As I'm told far too often - suspension of disbelief. The Federation has this ability, and has the ability to fit it to any ship with [relatively] minimal work in a matter of days. If they have the ability to use it then they can use it.

I know what you mean.

Thorin wrote:

Captain Seafort wrote: The fact that the Klingons could keep up (and be beating the Feds) is proof that their industrial capacity is equal to or superior to the Feds. Whether that is due to raw capacity or Fed stupidity is irrelevent - it shows that Deep's belief that a Fed construction drive could outbuild both the Klingons and the Romulans hs no foundation in canon.

No, it shows that if Deep were talking about the 40s and 50s it would have no foundation. I'm pretty sure he's talking about the 70s or beyond.

My point is that they haven't demonstrated acess to the technology. It may be that Voyager is the only ship in the fleet that can use it - perhaps for the reasons that Rochey suggested. Until we see evidence of the technology being fitted to other ships then we must conclude that the Federation cannot, for whatever reason, equip the fleet with the Endgame tech.

The federation has access to transphasics and ablative armour. Transphasics can clearly be replicated by Voyager - even if no other ship in the Galaxy could replicate them, Voyager would be sent to a secure compound and spend the rest of her days replicating transphasics. The same is true of ablative armour - if only Voyager can build those generators, then once they're built, give them to other ships.
Just because they haven't demonstrated the use of it doesn't mean they don't have the capability. They can't refit every ship at the same time.

I am indeed talking about the 70's and 80's since that is when the tech I have in mind would become more open for use.

I love the idea of the "Breeding" voy!

Thorin wrote:No, it shows that if Deep were talking about the 40s and 50s it would have no foundation. I'm pretty sure he's talking about the 70s or beyond.

The period in question covered the 2340s to the mid 2360s, and we've neither seen nor heard of evidence that the Feds have massively increased their industrial output relative to the Klingons since that time. This was also refering to a period of continuous warfare, during which time it would be expected that the Federation would increase its production to the maxium sustainable rate, as would the Klingons.

The federation has access to transphasics and ablative armour. Transphasics can clearly be replicated by Voyager - even if no other ship in the Galaxy could replicate them, Voyager would be sent to a secure compound and spend the rest of her days replicating transphasics. The same is true of ablative armour - if only Voyager can build those generators, then once they're built, give them to other ships.
Just because they haven't demonstrated the use of it doesn't mean they don't have the capability. They can't refit every ship at the same time.

The fact that no ship has been seen to have been refit with the Endgame tech is strong evidence that they can't be. The Federation has never been shy of fielding the most advanced weapons technology available on its front-line ships - the GCS for example. There is no reason, other than inability, why they would not do so with the Endgame tech.

Captain Seafort wrote: The period in question covered the 2340s to the mid 2360s, and we've neither seen nor heard of evidence that the Feds have massively increased their industrial output relative to the Klingons since that time. This was also refering to a period of continuous warfare, during which time it would be expected that the Federation would increase its production to the maxium sustainable rate, as would the Klingons.

The fact in the future a small Fed ship can stand up to the biggest enemy ships shows that they have increased their capacity.

The fact that no ship has been seen to have been refit with the Endgame tech is strong evidence that they can't be. The Federation has never been shy of fielding the most advanced weapons technology available on its front-line ships - the GCS for example. There is no reason, other than inability, why they would not do so with the Endgame tech.

They have got unlimited transphasic torpedos - built/replicated/modified by Voyager.
The end.

Wasn't the E-E the flagship? If so, you'd think any super-tech like that would get thrown on it ASAP.

Thorin wrote:The fact in the future a small Fed ship can stand up to the biggest enemy ships shows that they have increased their capacity.

Do you have any evidence that a thirty-plus-year old design is the strongest the Klingons have?

They have got unlimited transphasic torpedos - built/replicated/modified by Voyager.
The end.

Which, I'm sure, is why the Scimitar never posed a threat to the E-E and was destroyed within seconds of the battle begining. Oh. Wait.

What abaut if Jenvey brought back only a few torpedos and voyeger used them all.
Ablative armour generators are locked away by those temporal agencey guys.

True, but I'm not talking about everyship having QTs. I just think that everyship should be built with them in mind. Ablative armour is also a huge upgrade though by how little we've seen would be very costly to produce. Such things as these are part of a the 110 year plan that I have in mind for starfleet. My idea would call for a arms build up that would be unmatched save for if all of the other powers in the AQ and BQ pulled together. By the time this is over I would hope to have refitted the whole of starfleet into a life of its own.

Not only is that hugely inpractical for the economic reason Seafort pointed out but it is also unwsie due to the political ramifications.

If starfleet decided to TRY and get a massive lead over the other powers they may and probably would resort to weapons of mass destruction. Subspace weapons or creating new WMD on the scale of genesis.

Building the fleet up would put the Feds at more risk not less. Not only that but from what we have seen it is also economically impossible. It doesnt matter if you make it a slow build up as soon as you hit a point you cant go any further.

I'm very well aware of all of that, also that the max fleet that could ever be fielded by starfleet is 40,000 ships based on building around 400 per year in wartime and having a hull life of 100 years. I would also expect that such a build up would allow for all of the older ships in the fleet to be cycled out and replaced. A fleet of 20,000 modern ships would be very possible for starfleet to build. That and such a fleet would be unmatched by anything in the AQ. The Klingons are now allies and slated to join the UFP anyways. Their entry would bring Starfleet pretty close to those numbers anyhow.

The Klingons are now allies and slated to join the UFP anyways.

I seriously doubt the Klingons are going to join the Feds in the foreseeable future. Allies? Yep, provided nothing major comes up between them.

I thought that ent had said the Klingons were due to join the UFP in the late 2450's?

This is also the series that gave us the female version of Pon-Farr, and the Xindi Death Star. It has so many contradictions, the best course of action is probably just to say it all happens in a paralel universe.

Regarding the Klingons; their mentality would be completely against joining the Federation. Such an action, were it to happen, would cause an all out uprising among the conservative elements, and there's probably a lot of them.

Rochey wrote:Wasn't the E-E the flagship? If so, you'd think any super-tech like that would get thrown on it ASAP.

They may have been too far on or due for a refit. They may have been undergoing a deepspace mission. It was only a few months from Voyager getting back to Nemesis.

Do you have any evidence that a thirty-plus-year old design is the strongest the Klingons have?

Do you that it isn't? As it's the strongest ship we've seen we must assume it's the strongest there is.

Which, I'm sure, is why the Scimitar never posed a threat to the E-E and was destroyed within seconds of the battle begining. Oh. Wait. Rolling Eyes

Irrelevento! The feds have limitless transphasic torpedos. The end.

What abaut if Jenvey brought back only a few torpedos and voyeger used them all.
Ablative armour generators are locked away by those temporal agencey guys.

The Voyager crew clearly modified existing torpedos, and there's no indication they couldn't do it again.
The Ablative armour may have been locked away, but as I've said, it's still irrelevant - they can be accessed if required; they may only choose to use them during wartime. But they still have them and have the ability to use them. Just because they haven't quite literally means nothing what so ever.

Thorin, you're not paying attention. There was no evidence whatsoever that any of the Endgame technology had been developed by the Federation by the time of Nemesis, despite there being a gap of almost two years between the two events.

All you're putting forward is a claim that a thirty-year-old design is the strongest ship the Klingons have, despite twenty years being enough to develop an entirely new generation of weapons technology (YE), a no-limits fallacy WRT transphasic torps, and unsupported claims that the Feds could produce the technology en-mass if they wanted to.

Captain Seafort wrote:Thorin, you're not paying attention. There was no evidence whatsoever that any of the Endgame technology had been developed by the Federation by the time of Nemesis, despite there being a gap of almost two years between the two events.

Irrelevant whether it was developed. Voyager could supply it on demand. The most plausable explanation is that ships were either due refits (the E-E was refitted at the end of Nemesis, it's possible it was getting it at that time), or that they weren't installed during peacetime so that anything like an arms race happened, or so that other AQ powers didn't see the Feds getting all powerful and ganging together.

All you're putting forward is a claim that a thirty-year-old design is the strongest ship the Klingons have, despite twenty years being enough to develop an entirely new generation of weapons technology (YE), a no-limits fallacy WRT transphasic torps, and unsupported claims that the Feds could produce the technology en-mass if they wanted to.

They could create it. It's not unsupported - Voyager did it. I'm sure many other ships could, and even if they couldn't, Voyager would just be a breeding machine. There is no indication that a Negh'var isn't the most powerful ship the Klingons have 25 years in the future. In fact, before the Neghvar was created, I seem to remember the Klingons kept their previous most powerful ship for a hundred years or some other large figure.
Also the Galaxy in All Good Things was much more than a match for two Neghvars - a ship which was due for retirement!