GCS Vs 12" Cannons

[Mikey]

Actually, this seems to have come down to some real nice debating. m52 raises a good point - we're stuck witht he quote from the ep, so why don't we see mass-drivers? I'd guess things like internal space, recoil at relativistic speeds, etc.

[m52nickerson]

The Scimitar debate went on for longer than this thread and was far more flammable, yet we reached a conclusion in the end.

Sometimes we just have to punch each other around to get the juices flowing and knock the rust off.

[m52nickerson]

Actually, this seems to have come down to some real nice debating. m52 raises a good point - we're stuck witht he quote from the ep, so why don't we see mass-drivers? I'd guess things like internal space, recoil at relativistic speeds, etc.

I don't see internal space being a problem because a torpedo sized object would do. Recoil, maybe but that has never been a problem with launching a torpedo or probe.

Speaking of probe we have seen them launched and travel very far in relatively short periods of time. What is the maximum speed of a probe? Do items at small as probes use mass-lightening?

[Mikey]

I meant internal space as relates to the equipment of the guns, not of the ammo. Recoil wouldn't be the same issue as for a PT or probe because they use their own engines.

As to the probe, IDK. TNG actually showed them using what seemed to be a rocket engine.

[m52nickerson]

I meant internal space as relates to the equipment of the guns, not of the ammo. Recoil wouldn't be the same issue as for a PT or probe because they use their own engines.

As to the probe, IDK. TNG actually showed them using what seemed to be a rocket engine.

Nothing says that KE weapons could not carry there own engines.

[Sionnach Glic]

Sometimes we just have to punch each other around to get the juices flowing and knock the rust off.

Exactly. Both sides are debating properly now, so it's more than possible to reach a conclusion.

[kostmayer]

They're usually a do or die (or rather do and die) measure, but ships have rammed other ships, with pretty devestating effects - the Enterprise E and Soveriegn, the Dominion ship hitting the Odyssey, the Defiant flying through a Dominion ship in "The Die is Cast" - would the ship itself count as a Kinetic weapon?

The total energy of the impact can't be the only deciding factor in the damage the impact does - I'd wager the Breen weapon, that could take down shields and disable ships systems didn't do it through sheer force.

[m52nickerson]

They're usually a do or die (or rather do and die) measure, but ships have rammed other ships, with pretty devestating effects - the Enterprise E and Soveriegn, the Dominion ship hitting the Odyssey, the Defiant flying through a Dominion ship in "The Die is Cast" - would the ship itself count as a Kinetic weapon?

They would indead.

The total energy of the impact can't be the only deciding factor in the damage the impact does - I'd wager the Breen weapon, that could take down shields and disable ships systems didn't do it through sheer force.

This is true and could be why the 400GW blast from the Hunsack ship was able to take down the shields.

[Captain Seafort]

...and there is no reason that a ship after getting up to that speed could not fire a torpedo at a stationary ship. Could you also tell me were you are getting that a GCS acceleration rate is such that it would take hours to make it to 0.25c.

Not hours, but still a good 40 minutes. In TMP the E-nil took 1.8 hours to reach Jupiter from Earth orbit, a trip of 650 million km, at an average speed of approximately 1/3 lightspeed. The maximum speed would have been 200,000 km/s, and the acceleration therefore approximately 30 km/s. Given that the E-nil was attempting to intercept V'Ger as far out as possible, and Kirk later attempted to go to warp against Scotty's advice, it's safe to assume the ship was being driven as hard as possible. Note that in the case the helm order was given as a fractional warp factor (I can't remeber if it was .5 or .8) so this figure may be an exaggeration of impulse capabilities.

This makes sense, but at what impulse speeds does that mass-lightening affect take place?

Unknown - it would depend on the energy requirements of reducing the ship's mass vis a vis the power requirement of a given acceleration. It would have to be linked to acceleration rather than speed, given that the energy reuirements for sustaining the latter are nil.

I was not useing those site to make my argument, just back it up.

Very well. However, kindly summarise the contents of any site you post - simply posting the address isn't sufficient.

This makes sence, but still begs the question of why KE weapons are not used to at least take down shields before other weapons are used?

Unknown - surprising, given the observed weakness of shields to KE (it's also demonstrated in "The Naked Now", and the various Dominion War ramming incidents).

Remember that I don't subscribe to SoD as a way of analizing Sci-Fi.

If you don't apply SoD, you're not analysing the ship any more - you're analysing the abilities and intentions of the writers. I don't have a problem with that, provided you don't mix and match.

[m52nickerson]

Not hours, but still a good 40 minutes. In TMP the E-nil took 1.8 hours to reach Jupiter from Earth orbit, a trip of 650 million km, at an average speed of approximately 1/3 lightspeed. The maximum speed would have been 200,000 km/s, and the acceleration therefore approximately 30 km/s. Given that the E-nil was attempting to intercept V'Ger as far out as possible, and Kirk later attempted to go to warp against Scotty's advice, it's safe to assume the ship was being driven as hard as possible. Note that in the case the helm order was given as a fractional warp factor (I can't remeber if it was .5 or .8) so this figure may be an exaggeration of impulse capabilities.

I'm probably missing something, but how based on distance and time are you calculating acceleration?

Unknown - it would depend on the energy requirements of reducing the ship's mass vis a vis the power requirement of a given acceleration. It would have to be linked to acceleration rather than speed, given that the energy reuirements for sustaining the latter are nil.

Would it be required on a torpedo or a probe. Both are small and depending on how much mass it could lighten it may not do any good to be on objects so small.

Unknown - surprising, given the observed weakness of shields to KE (it's also demonstrated in "The Naked Now", and the various Dominion War ramming incidents).

"The Naked Now" involved a chunk of star that was large then the ship itself, most likely super dense, and traveling at a pretty good clip, even if shield were super resistant to KE I don't think they would stand up to that. Plus the fact that they did not even have helm control let alone the ability to raise shields.

As for the Dominon War nothing is to say the ships that got rammed did not already have their shields dropped or serverly weakend.

Plus we do see a few instances were ships bounce off shields. I am at work now so let me get home later tonight and I will try to find these episodes.

If you don't apply SoD, you're not analysing the ship any more - you're analysing the abilities and intentions of the writers. I don't have a problem with that, provided you don't mix and match.

Agreed. I think we will have to just agree to disagree on which is more important as you find SoD more important and I find intent more important.

[Tsukiyumi]

I'm probably missing something, but how based on distance and time are you calculating acceleration?

Dude, really? Distance equals rate multiplied by time. Even I know that, and I'm no math whiz.

If you know the distance, and the time it took to travel said distance, you can calculate the average speed (rate). Somebody else can take it from there.

[kostmayer]

I'm probably missing something, but how based on distance and time are you calculating acceleration?

I can't believe how much basic math I've forgotten I need to start practising this stuff again.

The distance travelled divided by the time taken gives the average speed - , approximately 100'000 km/s, 1/3 the speed of light.

Assuming constant accaleration, the average speed would be the (maximum+minimum speed)/2, hence the maximum speed is (2*Average Speed)-Minium Speed. Mimimum Speed would be zero, Maximum speed is therefore 2 * 100'000km/s, or 200'000 km/s.

Acceleration is the change in velocity over time taken. Time is 1.8 hours is 6480 seconds. 200'000 / 6480 is aproximately 30 km/s.

[Tsukiyumi]

Thank you.

[kostmayer]

I hope that makes sense, I have trouble explaining anything that is even slightly complicated - its great watching my boss get confused after he asks me a question.

[Captain Seafort]

I'm probably missing something, but how based on distance and time are you calculating acceleration?

Given constant acceleration the average is also the median, so doubling it gives you the maximum speed, divide by time and you have the acceleration.

Would it be required on a torpedo or a probe. Both are small and depending on how much mass it could lighten it may not do any good to be on objects so small.

Yes - torpedoes can accelerate to war from sublight ("Emissary" - the TNG one), so they must have mass-lightening ("Deja Q" shows that warp and mass-lightening are linked).

"The Naked Now" involved a chunk of star that was large then the ship itself, most likely super dense

All irrelevent - it's the change in momentum of the smaller object that matters.

traveling at a pretty good clip

Not that great - the E-D was able to shove the Tsitovsky at the lump far quicker than the lump was approaching.

Plus the fact that they did not even have helm control let alone the ability to raise shields.

Against a physical impact that shouldn't make much difference, as any impact on the shields would be transfered to the frame anyway through conservation of momentum.

As for the Dominon War nothing is to say the ships that got rammed did not already have their shields dropped or serverly weakend.

Yes there is - at 1st Chin'toka the Klingon ships were destroyed by ramming before suffing a single hit.

Plus we do see a few instances were ships bounce off shields.

"The Hunted" springs to mind - this simply demonstrates a lower limit for shield effectiveness, rather than "Survivors"' upper limit.