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There were multiple mentions of them collecting dueterium, and yet not one of arguably the more important component of anti-dueterium. Why would they make such an effort of going to nebulas to collect deuterium, if they could just get the considerably cheaper - under your premise - deuterium by bartering while they bartered for anti-dueterium? What is the point of going to a friendly planet to pick up very expensive anti-deuterium, not picking up any significantly cheaper deuterium, and going to a nebula some distance off, at far greater man-hour costs, to collect it there? Makes sense...

However, there are many theories about antimatter existing naturally in deep space. Voyager could have come across some antimatter nebulas or somesuch.
And the purpose for the duturium was mainly for the fusion reactors and posibbly the m/am reactor (I'm not sure if it is canon that duturium was the matter/antimatter used), not making antimatter. Also, the antimatter was magnetically (or some technobabble thing) compressed, so you could store (slightly) more of it in the pods than if it were uncompressed.

Thorin wrote:There were multiple mentions of them collecting dueterium, and yet not one of arguably the more important component of anti-dueterium. Why would they make such an effort of going to nebulas to collect deuterium, if they could just get the considerably cheaper - under your premise - deuterium by bartering while they bartered for anti-dueterium? What is the point of going to a friendly planet to pick up very expensive anti-deuterium, not picking up any significantly cheaper deuterium, and going to a nebula some distance off, at far greater man-hour costs, to collect it there? Makes sense...

And they never mentioned them picking up photon torpedoes, guess in all the years they just had an unlimited supply of the things. and sure the enterprise could drain its phasers but that voyager, it just keeps going and going and going. and look, nobody took showers or went to the bathroom, guess they never have to brush their teeth either.

you need proof of them doing everything and thats what you'll come too.

If you're saying there is an 80:20 ratio of anti-matter to matter, and that they bartered for anti-deuterium when they were shown collecting deuterium from nebulae, then the burden of proof is on you.

Stitch, it may have been compressed, but if the anti-matter was compressed, then there is no reason why the deuterium wouldn't be compressed too, still giving a 50:50 ratio.

Thorin wrote:Stitch, it may have been compressed, but if the anti-matter was compressed, then there is no reason why the deuterium wouldn't be compressed too, still giving a 50:50 ratio.

Oh, good point.
It is still possible that they discovered some antimatter in space.
Also, I think there would be more deuterium than antimatter because the deuterium was used for the fusion reactors.
This is taking into acount that starships were not intended to get lost very far away from a starbase where they could refuel.

It's highly unlikely they found anti-matter in space. It would react with any matter nearby - and it's had billions of years to do it too. It would have annihilated itself. And Voyager, for that matter. You may be right about there being a bit more deuterium for the fusion reactors, but they'd still need anti-matter, and the best explanation for that is that they converted dueterium into anti-deuterium, using an energy amount less than the warp core's usable output, so that the warp core could power the converter, on board the ships.

Why would they use the warp core to power the converter - they'd be using up their antimatter supply as they were generating it. It's more likely that they used the fusion reactors, allowing them to reserve their limited antimatter supply for operations requiring the warp core's much higher energy density, such as FTL.

Captain Seafort wrote:they'd be using up their antimatter supply as they were generating it. It's more likely that they used the fusion reactors, allowing them to reserve their limited antimatter supply for operations requiring the warp core's much higher energy density, such as FTL.

Because they wouldn't convert it a little bit at a time. They'd convert it all while they're in the nebula, and then refill back up to their maximum fuel capacity, after some was used in the conversion process. Even if they didn't do it this way (though no other way is really feasible), the energy requirements for the converter may be negligible compared to the output of the warp core - all we know is that the requirements must be less than the mass-energy of the deuterium itself.

Thorin wrote:If you're saying there is an 80:20 ratio of anti-matter to matter, and that they bartered for anti-deuterium when they were shown collecting deuterium from nebulae, then the burden of proof is on you.

Stitch, it may have been compressed, but if the anti-matter was compressed, then there is no reason why the deuterium wouldn't be compressed too, still giving a 50:50 ratio.

why don't you prove anti-matter is made aboard starships, that they never bartered for it and that i'm completely wrong. your pulling theories out of the same hole i'm doing it out of. why should yours be right and mine wrong. were's the proof they ever made anti matter aboard ship? i don't remember a single episode in any of the series were they stopped to make antimatter.

Why would they need to stop?

The reason my theory is more suitable/reasonable for the data is that they were shown collecting deuterium. It is more reasonable to assume that they converted some deuterium into anti-deuterium. Why? Well, if they made such a big deal out of collecting deuterium, there is no reason to not make as big a deal out of collecting anti-deuterium - unless that is, of course - that they don't collect it, but rather that they create/convert it.

Naturally-occurring antimatter which has been annihilated in the first few milliseconds of its lifespan is a VERY rare thing on which to base one's starship's FTL and defense abilities.

Thorin wrote:Why would they need to stop?

The reason my theory is more suitable/reasonable for the data is that they were shown collecting deuterium. It is more reasonable to assume that they converted some deuterium into anti-deuterium. Why? Well, if they made such a big deal out of collecting deuterium, there is no reason to not make as big a deal out of collecting anti-deuterium - unless that is, of course - that they don't collect it, but rather that they create/convert it.

wait a minute. look at your math and then extrapolate the error. it takes matter/antimatter reaction aboard a starship to create energy. now, according to startrek they have a 26 percent net loss in creating antimatter. your theory is they collect deutrium, smash matter and antimatter together to create energy, then use that energy to create antimatter. your looking at a downward spiral of energy there. the system looses energy in creating the particle that gives it energy then spends that energy to create another particle loosing more energy. it makes ALOT more sense that an unlimited or near so natural resource is tapped to create anti matter and then said antimatter is loaded aboard a ship. although theres a net loss in creating antimatter, you atleast have an abundant natural resource supplying the energy.

so unless you can actually show were making antimatter aboard a ship would actually be more logical a procedure then creating it off ship and then loading it aboard, i'm afraid your theory will not hold matter .... or antimatter either.

But it will hold (heavy water... (Sorry. Bad deuterium joke.)

Anyway, there is just so little a possibility for naturally existing "deposits" of antimatter that it would almost necessitate ship-board antimatter production. Obviously, we all know what happens when matter and antimatter contact one another... so how would a "puddle" of antimatter naturally be able to exist for more than a very short while?

ultron2099 wrote:wait a minute. look at your math and then extrapolate the error. it takes matter/antimatter reaction aboard a starship to create energy. now, according to startrek they have a 26 percent net loss in creating antimatter. your theory is they collect deutrium, smash matter and antimatter together to create energy, then use that energy to create antimatter. your looking at a downward spiral of energy there.

Sorry, I've made a post about this repeating myself countless times. The 26% loss - even though this isn't canon I will entertain it to show that even if it were your point is utterly wrong - which is 74% efficiency, is in regards to CREATING anti-matter. The amount of energy coming OUT of the CONVERTER in terms of generic particle energy [kinetic, thermal] (NOT mass-energy) is 74% of that of the amount of energy going IN to the CONVERTER. The other 26% is wasted in thigns such as heat coming off the converter, lost to the surroundings. The net loss is in JUST the conveter, or JUST the warp core. There is NO cross over in this context. I made a large post a few posts back - reread it. My maths is sound. Energy is lost, but it's okay - it doesn't matter, there was plenty more AVAILABLE to input as mass-energy. Mass-energy of the particles, and the energy requirements of the converter are SEPARATE. How many more times?

the system looses energy in creating the particle that gives it energy then spends that energy to create another particle loosing more energy. it makes ALOT more sense that an unlimited or near so natural resource is tapped to create anti matter and then said antimatter is loaded aboard a ship. although theres a net loss in creating antimatter, you atleast have an abundant natural resource supplying the energy.

The cycle is as follows:
- A SMALL percentage of the mass-energy of the anti-matter/matter [warp core] is used to power the converter
- Deuterium is put into the converter. The small amount of energy from the warp core is used to convert the deuterium into anti-deuterium. The amount of energy that a matter/anti-matter reaction can supply is GREATER than the energy required to convert the matter to anti-matter.
- 26% of the energy SUPPLIED (NOT the total output of the warp core) to the converter is lost to the surroundings (non canon, but I said I'd entertain it)
- 74% of the energy SUPPLIED is used to actually CONVERT the matter into anti-matter, and is maintained as the anti-matter's kinetic/thermal energy
- Only 26% of the SMALL amount of energy supplied BY the warp core is lost. This is not a 26% loss of the entire warp core's energy
- The anti-matter is put into the warp core.
- Process repeats. The mass-energy of the anti-matter that is put into the warp core in the above point is greater than the energy requirements of the converter. So only a small percentage of the mass-energy of the anti-matter is used to convert other anti-matter. There is thus plenty left.

The system does lose energy because anti-matter is being used to warp space-time etc, but there is no downward spiral. Why? Because the converter doesn't require more energy than the warp core can supply (per unit mass of the reactant).

so unless you can actually show were making antimatter aboard a ship would actually be more logical a procedure then creating it off ship and then loading it aboard, i'm afraid your theory will not hold matter .... or antimatter either.

Now that I have proved (for the nth time) that there is no downward spiral, and that the energy REQUIRED to CREATE anti-matter is LESS than the (mass-)energy OF the anti-matter, perhaps you can see that my theory is far more sound, for the reason I already said - if they made a big fuss of getting deuterium, they would make just as big a fuss of getting anti-deuterium. Unless they didn't collect it - they create it from the deuterium they have already collected.

Think of it this way -

If it only takes 1J to create 1KG of anti-matter, then only 1 joule of mass-energy is used to convert it...
So the mass-energy going into the warp core IS enough to convert more anti-matter,
- which in turn is enough to supply the warp core with more mass-energy,
- which in turn is enough to create more anti-matter,
- which in turn is enough to supply the warp core with more mass-energy,
- which in turn is enough to create more anti-matter,
(ad infinitum)

This, for example, is an upward spiral - but energy isn't coming out of nowhere, you must still supply it initially with deuterium.

If it takes 10^17J (or more) - the mass-energy of 1KG of anti-matter - then more energy than the amount of mass-energy of the anti-matter is used to conver it.
So the mass-energy going into the warp core is not enough to convert enough anti-matter,
- which in turn is not enough to supply the warp core with enough mass-energy
- which in turn is not enough to create enough anti-matter
- which in turn is not enough to supply the warp core with enough mass-energy
- which in turn is not enough to create enough anti-matter
(ad infinitum)

This, for example, takes your downward spiral.

That is why the conversion process must require less energy than the amount of energy available as the mass-energy of the anti-matter.

Really, if I haven't made it clear enough now then you're a lost cause.