The potential for refits

[Duskofdead]

we never saw the Akira until the Dominion war.

True, but the registries do suggest that it's quite an old design.

I wouldn't doubt they've had the idea around for a while now. The Akira isn't a small ship. She's just not a huge ship. But I'd take a fair bet that with war coming against the Dominion that turning out Akiras would be a lot easier.

'Course. Any old design that they had had 5 or 10 years+ to start mass producing the components more easily for would be churned out faster. I think when you start to see a ship class appearing "in numbers", it's likely the design is already 5-15 years old. It seems to take the Federation about that length of time to ramp up efficient construction quotas for a new ship design (mass producing new components, systems, spaceframes, etc.) Plus they seem to take their time about testcruising designs--- wasn't the Defiant several years old before, at least to the extent of our knowledge, they produced any other ships of the class? Both of these make total sense (that they would wait-and-see before ramping mass production, and that moving into mass producing a new design would take years), but they also caution us not to rely on pure spotchecking to "guess" when ships were designed. Seeing a lot of Akiras (or whatever) appear around the time of DS9 doesn't mean the design is new, for all we know it means the design is "old" (old enough to be in full mass production, or old enough to have been mass produced over the course of past years and many of them are still around.) If we went purely on spot checking, someone who never watched anything but DS9 might guess that Mirandas are a relatively brand new heavy combat ship. After all we see one being the first ship to engage the Borg in "Emissary" and then see them heavily involved in the fleet battles of the Dominion War.

[Deepcrush]

You're putting to many what ifs in. You can't play the guessing game when we already know about the Miranda and other classes. Otherwise you're just running it the same circles as M52 is and it all ends up being pointless.

[Duskofdead]

You're putting to many what ifs in. You can't play the guessing game when we already know about the Miranda and other classes. Otherwise you're just running it the same circles as M52 is and it all ends up being pointless.

No, I'm not. I'm pointing out the flaw of lazily eyeballing the show and saying "okay this design is new/old."

The first time any of us saw an Akira was First Contact. So do we then assume they were custom-built to fight the Borg and were <12 months old? We could go with that ... by ignoring contrary evidence (registry numbers, etc.) and just choosing to go with something.

[Deepcrush]

No, I'm not. I'm pointing out the flaw of lazily eyeballing the show and saying "okay this design is new/old."

We go by Cannon. Not eyeballing.

The first time any of us saw an Akira was First Contact. So do we then assume they were custom-built to fight the Borg and were <12 months old? We could go with that ... by ignoring contrary evidence (registry numbers, etc.) and just choosing to go with something.

If you do then you're a moron. Most designs in ST take several years to turn out. But to think that everything was built to fight the Borg is a retards jump sack. The more likely is that they started turning out those designs to replace an aged fleet built mostly of Mirandas and Excelsiors. Registry Numbers are ok for guessing when you have nothing else to go by but that isn't the case here since we have far better options.

Care to point something helpful out?

[Duskofdead]

No, I'm not. I'm pointing out the flaw of lazily eyeballing the show and saying "okay this design is new/old."

We go by Cannon. Not eyeballing.

Then what's your prob?

If you do then you're a moron. Most designs in ST take several years to turn out.

This is precisely what I just said.

But to think that everything was built to fight the Borg is a retards jump sack.

Yet, if you assume that when you see something is always a good indicator of how old the design is, that is what you could assume about the Akira. Since we didn't see it in TNG, and the first time we see it is during a renewed Borg threat. (The same time period ships like the Defiant and Sovereign were coming into production.) So my point was you can't always just assume based on "when you see the ship" how old it is or what role it's designed to fulfill. When I first saw First Contact since there were so many new designs (Steamrunner, Akira, Norway, Saber) on screen, I assumed we were seeing all-new designs held in some kind of emergency reserve as like, heavy combat ships. That was just my assumption when I first watched the movie. But, frankly, there's no reason in strict canon to believe or disbelieve that. We don't know what the purpose-design role of any of those ships are or how long they've been around.

The more likely is that they started turning out those designs to replace an aged fleet built mostly of Mirandas and Excelsiors.

That's guesstimation. We have never been told in any canon what role the Akiras were designed to fulfill. We don't even know, in canon, what their capabilities are. We cobble together from backstage sources and unofficial sources that it's combat-biased, somewhat heavily armed (for a moderate size starship) and used as a carrier type launch point as well. We don't know ANY of that from watching it on screen. If you're going to run around yelling "canon, canon!" to back up everything, don't throw in suppositions and pass them off as canon.

Registry Numbers are ok for guessing when you have nothing else to go by but that isn't the case here since we have far better options.

We do? Such as? You making something up and insisting it's canon?

Care to point something helpful out?

That you aren't very good at following a point.

[Granitehewer]

Deep, you're a very naughty man, try to cool your cucumbers, as you are entertaining but may inadvertently offend.
This thread has made me smile all day

[Deepcrush]

Then what's your prob?

I have to live in a world full of stupid people where the bosses put limits on who we can kill and when. That and I want lunch but I'm not sure what I'm in the mood for. I've got tons of food, just went shopping, but none of it is catching my eye.

This is precisely what I just said.

You tried to say that anyone who watched DS9 would think the Miranda is a new ship. Some how this was your come back against logic. That person wouldn't be a fair judge of ship designs in ST. So their opinion on the matter would be worth shit.

Yet, if you assume that when you see something is always a good indicator of how old the design is, that is what you could assume about the Akira. Since we didn't see it in TNG, and the first time we see it is during a renewed Borg threat. (The same time period ships like the Defiant and Sovereign were coming into production.) So my point was you can't always just assume based on "when you see the ship" how old it is or what role it's designed to fulfill. When I first saw First Contact since there were so many new designs (Steamrunner, Akira, Norway, Saber) on screen, I assumed we were seeing all-new designs held in some kind of emergency reserve as like, heavy combat ships. That was just my assumption when I first watched the movie. But, frankly, there's no reason in strict canon to believe or disbelieve that. We don't know what the purpose-design role of any of those ships are or how long they've been around.

We don't have to know anything for sure. The point is to take what we do know as a whole and put it together to project as solid an image as we can. Between known cannon, suspected cannon and real world ideals we can paint a pretty fair picture of the ST universe.

That's guesstimation. We have never been told in any canon what role the Akiras were designed to fulfill. We don't even know, in canon, what their capabilities are. We cobble together from backstage sources and unofficial sources that it's combat-biased, somewhat heavily armed (for a moderate size starship) and used as a carrier type launch point as well. We don't know ANY of that from watching it on screen. If you're going to run around yelling "canon, canon!" to back up everything, don't throw in suppositions and pass them off as canon.

You've got a nice bullshit run but its worth about as little as you are. When dealing with unknowns you have to take what you do know and build up from there. The Mirandas and Excelsiors are old ships... CANON CANON! The Mirandas and Excelsiors make up the bulk of the known fleet throughout TNG... CANON CANON! The Defiant and Akira are newer designs then the Miranda and Excelsior... CANON CANON! When you have an aged fleet and you are facing the combined threat of the Borg and the Dominion after several wars against several local powers you may want to update the fleet... LOGIC LOGIC supported by CANON CANON!

You see, I can run around all day and yell canon canon if I want.

We do? Such as? You making something up and insisting it's canon?

Aww, so cute. You don't have anything to say in reply so you play pretend world and hide you head in your ass.

This has already been covered but just look up a few lines and you might be able to get it...

That you aren't very good at following a point.

Not so much that as much that your point really isn't worth following.

[Deepcrush]

Deep, you're a very naughty man, try to cool your cucumbers, as you are entertaining but may inadvertently offend.
This thread has made me smile all day

Hey now, its not my fault. I get moody when I'm hungry!

[Granitehewer]

i love it, you're like lon chaney the wolfman meets hannibal lector, but have to be careful incase someone personalises it or misinterprets.
Don't mention food, i spent my lunch money on schnapps,so am dead hungry, although i can stop whenever i want.......ahem

[Tsukiyumi]

Of course, Deep, you dumbshit, you seem to have missed that Dusk was making the same point you were. Maybe he needs more insults in his posts.

[Duskofdead]

You tried to say that anyone who watched DS9 would think the Miranda is a new ship. Some how this was your come back against logic. That person wouldn't be a fair judge of ship designs in ST. So their opinion on the matter would be worth s**t.

You have reading problems. I said if the only parameter is starting to make suppositions based on when or in what context we see a ship, then someone who started with DS9 could make that assumption about the Miranda class. And, obviously, they'd be wrong. If you're going to respond, actually read what I say instead of whatever you imagine I'm saying.

We don't have to know anything for sure. The point is to take what we do know as a whole and put it together to project as solid an image as we can. Between known cannon, suspected cannon and real world ideals we can paint a pretty fair picture of the ST universe.

Okay so we only use canon when it backs up what we already think, based on what we subjectively cobble together to "project as solid an image as we can"? In other words, back to what I basically said when I first joined these forums, which is, we are given such little hard detail in canon that it's really up to everyone's imagination to fill in most of the gaps. Which, in my opinion, is how things have pretty much always operated ANYHOW, except that some people get a real stick up the rear about "proving" their opinion is the unquestionably canonical one and everyone else's is a conclusion "only a moron could draw." Which as I have said many times is silly and ridiculous considering what little amount of actual in-depth hard canon detail there is about almost any ship's precise age, designed purpose, strengths and weaknesses.

You've got a nice bullshit run but its worth about as little as you are.

Right back at you.

When dealing with unknowns you have to take what you do know and build up from there.

So back to what I said above. We use canon, then we make **** up as we please and claim it's canon or "obviously supportable by canon" and call people idiots for disagreeing.

The Mirandas and Excelsiors are old ships... CANON CANON! The Mirandas and Excelsiors make up the bulk of the known fleet throughout TNG... CANON CANON! The Defiant and Akira are newer designs then the Miranda and Excelsior... CANON CANON! When you have an aged fleet and you are facing the combined threat of the Borg and the Dominion after several wars against several local powers you may want to update the fleet... LOGIC LOGIC supported by CANON CANON!

It's circumstantial to say class x is old, class y is new, and therefore class y was produced to replace class x. Since we saw both classes performing the same duties side by side in the DS9 era, the argument that the Akira was mass produced as a replacement for the Miranda and Excelsior becomes quite weak.

Ever done one of those logic things on a test? You know, all weebles are pestles, and all pestles are boyars... therefore all boyars must be weebles, true/false? Same idea.

Aww, so cute. You don't have anything to say in reply so you play pretend world and hide you head in your ass.

LOL this from the guy who, when disagreed with or qualified on a minor point, flies off the handle and starts cussing and calling people morons and responding to points which weren't made, and ignoring the text you quote. Which really helps your argument, by the way.

Not so much that as much that your point really isn't worth following.

And yet, you found the time to go out of your way to respond in great detail (though usually wildly off the mark of whatever I had said) and lace it with a lot of insults. Good job.

[Duskofdead]

Of course, Deep, you dumbshit, you seem to have missed that Dusk was making the same point you were. Maybe he needs more insults in his posts.

Seriously. Apparently food deprivation lowers his reading comprehension by about 98%. I should have just saved my time and edited the whole post as "#@($* YOU DEEP!" since that is basically the vein in which he bothered to respond.

[Tsukiyumi]

Right. SOD is great, but there are a lot of places in Trek where we don't have enough real information to do much more than guess. Seafort pointed out that the registry numbers on the Akira suggest it being an older class, so that's the only canon info we have. Just because we never saw the class before FC doesn't mean it didn't exist before then, and the only canon we have to base a guess on says it did. Which, I think, is pretty much what Dusk said.

I'm starting to be reminded of mlsnoopy's argument against the Nebula's pods being modular here, for some reason...

[Duskofdead]

Yup if someone wants to stick only to the bare canon, fine. If someone wants to say "well this is what makes the most sense, even if it's not strictly in the canon", fine. But there's a definite abundance of people extrapolating off the canon into the subjective guesswork territory, then claiming it's the only possible conclusion we can draw, and trying to reverse engineer it into being as good as canon. And then getting hostile and ignorant towards people who disagree. Fun times.

[Tsukiyumi]

Yup if someone wants to stick only to the bare canon, fine. If someone wants to say "well this is what makes the most sense, even if it's not strictly in the canon", fine. But there's a definite abundance of people extrapolating off the canon into the subjective guesswork territory, then claiming it's the only possible conclusion we can draw, and trying to reverse engineer it into being as good as canon. And then getting hostile and ignorant towards people who disagree. Fun times.

Well, to be fair, we have worked out an extremely nebulous and vague system of deciding what makes sense to debate about here. If the discussion begins as an in-universe question or concept, we treat it as such, and while a lot of material is open to interpretation, some of it isn't, in that context.

Like I said about the Akira -

Canon info: general size estimate, general defensive strength and maneuverability, relative age based on registry number.

Non-canon: firepower, numbers, role, crew compliment, warp speed.

As to the original topic, the BoP -

Canon info: visuals show a number of different sizes (so different classes are implied), general firepower, known armament, general defensive strength and maneuverability, general proportion of Klingon fleet, role(s).

Non-canon: most class names, overall numbers (of each type), age, firepower, defensive strength, and maneuverability of larger classes.

Just because the larger BoP variants only appeared a few times doesn't mean they don't exist - it means they are either very rare, or rarely deployed where our heroes would encounter them.

Out-of-universe, of course those were FX errors, but I agree that interpreting footage and/or dialog is the only good way to discuss Trek from an IU perspective.