Excelsior Class Discussion

[katefan]

Only thing I have to say is that the warp core in the Reliant is in the integrated engineering hull, not in the saucer. Therefore there is no suggestive evidence that the saucer of the Connie could hold a WC.

But doesn't the Saladin class have a warp core in it's saucer section? I do not think there is any room in the neck. Then again, the Saladin is not canon so maybe it does not fit in this discussion?

[Praeothmin]

Wrong, the debate started with why is or how could the Connie be more powerful. IF you wanna start twisting my words or miss using my quotes then we'll take it up with the mods. The whole point of this topic IS a matter of opinion founded by the information we have at hand. Proof taken from canon is what I've used to support my OPINION on the matter. If you can't handle that then you shouldn't be here

You are right, it did start out that way.
I had thought I had asked if there was proof of this, but I didn't.
This was my first post:

I've never understood the contention that the Constitution-class was more powerful then the Mirandas. They had more volumes, sure, but more power? We clearly see in ST II that both ships, when unshielded, have approximately the same resistance from one another's weapons. In fact, even with low-level shields (the "energy fields") up, the Enterprise got beat up pretty bad by the Reliant's weapons. Were it not for Kirk and Spock's greater experience in space combat, the Reliant could have taken the fight, because she was still in greater shape then the Enterprise even after being fired upon by it once her shields were down.

Again you are mis-using my quotes. I said power source COULD be held there. The FACT that the Reliant has a warp core means it is possible.

I never said that there IS a warp core in the Connie's saucer. I said there IS the ABILITY for a power source to be added. You've again lied about what is being said.

You're right, rereading the posts I've realized that I'd automatically associated "power source" to "Warp Core".
Sorry about that.

Again that depends on the type of power source.

Well, since most ships use Fusion generators as power sources for the Impuls drive, and as backup power, the added sources should be Fusion generators.
In the ST: Voyager episode "Tattoo", Voyager nearly drained its fusion reactors while attempting to land safely amidst a massive electrical storm. (found at Memory Alpha)

A larger ship requires a larger amount of power.

Yes, and I agreed.
What I did add is that the added power necessary for the Constitution-class to move, or to go to warp, will not be available for weapons and shields.

As to the damage the Connie took, it was hit in a suprise attack from a ship with similar fire power and no ability to return fire.

So you also think that the Miranda has firepower close to that of a Constitution.

My biggest mistake was my definite lack of clarity.
Sorry!

My examples of power were all geared towards combat, yet I kept referring to power all along.
I agree that the Constitution should be able to produce more power then the Miranda, what I don't agree with is the fact that the added power means nore powerful in combat.
This is what I should have stated since the beginning.

Bullshit, a larger ship as more room for weapons. We call it reality.

I haven't seen any indication that the Constitution has more weapons then the Miranda.
More torpedoes, perhaps, since it also has more volume, but I've seen 2 launchers on the Constitution, and two on the Miranda.
The Constitution's Phasers seem to be located in the middle of the saucer section, top and bottom, whereas the Miranda seems to hold its Phasers on the sides of the pod mount.
They have aft-facing PTL.
Are there any more?

How do you know that they are the same types of phasers? Where is your proof? We make a guess that similar ships SHOULD have similar weapons but a larger ship again has the choice to have more of them and greater power to be supplied to them.

You're right, I don't know, and I don't have any proof, I'm just going by the damage I see inflicted onscreen.
Khan crippled the Enterprise, but when the Enterprise fired back, it crippled the Miranda.
Both ships' emitters seem similar in size when compared to their respective saucer sections.
Also, you can have more emitters, but if each emitter is limited in the power it can use, that will not result in higher firepower.

That there is lie number SEVEN. I didn't say "I wouldn't put them past 18!"

Your just arguing over semantics here.
Your exact statement, that "Since most of those kids didn't even look old enough to shave I wouldn't put most of them over 18" means pretty much the same thing.
You think the majority of the Cadets (I.E., "most of them") aren't over 18, and all of that because, in your opinion, they don't look old enough to shave.
At 18, or even 21, most young men won't even have a noticeable "5 o'clock shadow" if they shave every day, even at the end of the day.

Also, there is a rather large difference between someone who is 18 and someone who is 21. I myself grew almost 3 inches between High School and my 21st birthday. I was 5'10 and was then 6'1 on my new DL. I'm currently over 6'2 at 25. My facial hair is also a great deal different from that time till now as it is with most men. You'll learn this when you start to grow hair in those little special places after your age hits double digits.

And if you knew about such things, you'd know that it isn't the case with most men.

In boys, the growth spurt begins at 12 or 13, reaches a peak by age 14, and is typically over by the age of 19

Found here:
http://www.riverdeep.net/current/2000/0 ... owth.jhtml

So, just as your height isn't average, your late growth spurt isn't either.
So using yourself to compare the possible age of the Cadets isn't valid.

In an earlier post, you said the following:

Whats so hard for you? Experienced command, not experienced crew. If there are 5 trained crew and 450 none trained crew.

You basically implied that the entire crew was filled with Cadets, which I dispute.
You are right, I do not have any proof that these Cadets had 4 years of training.
What I'm pretty sure of is that, since they were attending Starfleet Academy, were surrounded by more experienced crewmembers, and had one of the most experienced Comand Crew available, they were cetainly better prepared then Khan, who didn't even know where the "shield override" was when the Enterprise lowered the Reliant's shields.

Plus no one said that the Cadets were worse or better then Khan's crew.

You're right, and re-reading the thread, I realize that my Cadet arguments were in response to Captain Seafort's first post:

The decision makers were all experienced officers, but the ship itself was crewed by cadets - weapons control, PT loading bays, engineering and damage control were all in the hands of cadets. Against Khan they were able to get away with it because his crew, for all their intelligence and quickness to saok up information, were learning on the job, based on a quick browse through the operator's manuals.

And he was even agreeing.
As are you it seems.

should we be shocked that the persons greating Kirk are the senior members of the current crew?

Except that Scotty's nephew, a Cadet, is there also.
Looking at the DVD (at around the 26 minutes mark), there seems to be an equal amount of experienced crew and of Cadets.

Where the f**k do you expect to train a starship crew... on a f***ing sail boat???

Do you think that they put fighter pilots in fighter planes without first making them practice long hours on a smiulator, and learning all they first can about the systems they'll have to work with?

Then that would have put them about equal in a battle where the E-nil came out the victor. In the end that leaves the E-nil as superior.

Yes, if only slightly, for all the good those "Defense Fields" had.

My opinion is that they should put in an extra power source. The proof has been given that they have the ability for an extra power source.

Yes, the "proof of your opinion" has been given.
The actual proof of this extra power source actually being there, hasn't.

About the car analogy:

Because the battery alone would die without something to recharge it which is what the engine is for. AKA, just like you your statement was meaningless.

Yes, because we all know a 12V battery would have sufficient energy to actually power the entire car...

The Battery is charged because of the engine. They are part of the same machine dumbfuck.

Yes, through the alternator.
The point of my analogy was to show that all the "smaller" systems in a spaceship are probably not requiring much power to activate and use, when compared to the Warp Engines.

By the way, I never said stick a battery in the saucer but a power generator or source, not power storage.

Yes, I know, although they do have batteries that store power reserves on Federations ships.

Look, all your points are sensible, there is (as I've agreed many times) enough space for an extra power source, but no proof of this, and no proof that this extra power source (if there is one) makes the Constitution-class more powerful in a battle then the Miranda-class.
I think on an equal field, with equally trained crews, the Constitution has the possibility to outlast a Miranda, if only for the "Defense Fields" (however small the advantage is) and because of it's greater mass and volume.
There's a lot more you can damage on a Constitution before you actually hit something vital, but in terms of overall power in a fight, the advantage isn't that big.

All this discussion about the difference in power generation mainly came because:
A- We were trying to explain why the Excelsior replaces the Constitutions, and not the Mirandas;

and

B- I wasn't clear in many of my posts.
I'll certainly try to be way clearer in the future.


And, be the way, Kevin Bacon was not in Footloose...

[stitch626]

I haven't seen any indication that the Constitution has more weapons then the Miranda.
More torpedoes, perhaps, since it also has more volume, but I've seen 2 launchers on the Constitution, and two on the Miranda.
The Constitution's Phasers seem to be located in the middle of the saucer section, top and bottom, whereas the Miranda seems to hold its Phasers on the sides of the pod mount.
They have aft-facing PTL.
Are there any more?

Here is the most comprehensive list of weapons and their locations (as far as I know).

Miranda:
4 PTL : 2f, 2a; all in the pod
2 roll bar phaser banks (forward, though may have similar weapons facing aft)
6 dorsal saucer phaser banks (in 3 sets of 2)
6 ventral saucer phaser banks (same as top)

Constitution:
2 PTL : forward (and easily visible on the model... there has been supposition of an aft launcher, though I can't figure out where it would be)
same saucer banks as the Miranda
2 aft dorsal phaser banks (parallel to the nacelles, right above of the hanger bay)
5 dorsal engineering phaser banks (never seen fired, but visible on the studio model; not determined as canon to my knowledge)

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

Stich, I've got a model of a Connie refit and there's a spot behind and above the forward torp launchers, a recessed area with ridges. I believe that is the aft torp launcher.

Also, where are the weapons on an Excelsior? I know of the phasers on the saucer and the torp launchers on the engineering hull and at the very end, but anything else?

[stitch626]

You may be right about the Connie's aft launcher.

As for the Excelsior:
4 PTLs : 2 forward, 2 aft (all easily seen on the model)
between 6 and 10 dorsal and ventral saucer phaser banks (varies between models, generally accepted as 10; same style as others)
2 aft phaser banks (above shuttle bay)

There may be more, but those are only the ones I've seen.

[Deepcrush]

...Fusion hasn't been used in over a hundred years at this point...

Impulse drives are powered by fusion reactors, dipshit.

TOS UFP ships use plasma drives (TOS,STVI) and have we've even had Scotty remark about how weak fusion reactors are next to what SF uses(TOS)... DUMBFUCK. Research first, speak second, insult third.

"Don't fuck with the Jedi Master"

(Jay and Silent Bob strike back)

[Deepcrush]

Only thing I have to say is that the warp core in the Reliant is in the integrated engineering hull, not in the saucer. Therefore there is no suggestive evidence that the saucer of the Connie could hold a WC.

You should have checked the model first. The Reliant doesn't have a integrated engine hull. There is the saucer, weapons pod and warp necelles. Thats it. There for the WC is in the saucer and there for is PURE EVIDENCE that the saucer can hold a WC.

[Sonic Glitch]

Only thing I have to say is that the warp core in the Reliant is in the integrated engineering hull, not in the saucer. Therefore there is no suggestive evidence that the saucer of the Connie could hold a WC.

If this is what you had to say then you shouldn't have said anything. The Reliant doesn't have a integrated engine hull. There is the saucer, weapons pod and warp necelles. Thats it. There for the WC is in the saucer and there for is PURE EVIDENCE that the saucer can hold a WC.

For accuracies sake, it had a half saucer. And that boxy bit that other trek ships down't have, judging by positioning and style and such = integrated engineering hull. Half Saucer + Integrated Engineering Hull = Miranda Class

[Tsukiyumi]

...Fusion hasn't been used in over a hundred years at this point...

Impulse drives are powered by fusion reactors, dipshit.

TOS UFP ships use plasma drives (TOS,STVI) and have we've even had Scotty remark about how weak fusion reactors are next to what SF uses(TOS).

I suppose GK's research and the TM weren't accurate enough, then. I don't have the luxury of going through every episode of Trek to find the references to fusion reactors on Fed ships, but Praeothmin apparently found a reference to fusion reactors onboard Voyager, which is well after TOS.

What exactly was Scotty's comment, again? And where are any references to "plasma drives"? Anyone else here recall ever hearing that term?

[Deepcrush]

Preaothim wrote... snip...

Your just arguing over semantics here.

It has nothing to do with semantics. You got yourself caught being the lying piece of shit that you are and now you're just trying to spin your way out of it. F-U-C-K-Y-O-U-! Even in your latest post you're lying and misquoting me YET AGAIN. Now, granted we already had a mod in here respond since your first post but he was too busy trying with his pathetic shot at me rather then doing his job but that's not much out of the norm here.

Your exact statement, that "Since most of those kids didn't even look old enough to shave I wouldn't put most of them over 18" means pretty much the same thing.
You think the majority of the Cadets (I.E., "most of them") aren't over 18, and all of that because, in your opinion, they don't look old enough to shave.

This was a misquote inside of your own statement.

In boys, the growth spurt begins at 12 or 13, reaches a peak by age 14, and is typically over by the age of 19

Another mis use of one of my statements since I never said anything about any 14 year old boys on board.

You basically implied that the entire crew was filled with Cadets, which I dispute.

Yet another spin. I didn't basically imply anything. The point is that on a training ship there will be more cadets then instructors.

Except that Scotty's nephew, a Cadet, is there also.

Its his fucking nephew dumbass... go figure...

Do you think that they put fighter pilots in fighter planes without first making them practice long hours on a smiulator, and learning all they first can about the systems they'll have to work with?

I guess you've seen a SF holodeck in TOS the size of a running starship? Or maybe they've gone through basic training but still need help with the ship which would explain WHY THEY HAVE INSTRUCTORS THERE.

Yes, the "proof of your opinion" has been given.
The actual proof of this extra power source actually being there, hasn't.

Yet another misquote. I never said that they had one, I said they had the option to have one.


In this latest post you have five misquotes and or lies attached. If you find yourself in a place that you have to lie and twist to get around then either conceed like an adult or just follow the reg around here and run off to another topic.

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

I'm thinking the fusion quote id from 'Elaan of Troyius'. Scotty comments that the impulse engines are quite a bit faster than the Troyian's nuclear propulsion units.

[Deepcrush]

I suppose GK's research and the TM weren't accurate enough, then. I don't have the luxury of going through every episode of Trek to find the references to fusion reactors on Fed ships, but Praeothmin apparently found a reference to fusion reactors onboard Voyager, which is well after TOS.

The TM is the biggest piece of shit around. GK's research doesn't matter. And if you don't have the luxury of running through everything well that's just not my problem. Having one ship a hundred years in the future using a fusion reactor vs a ship a hundred years past using a plasma drive doesn't make either wrong. Just makes them from different times. VOY and TOS have a little gap between them.

What exactly was Scotty's comment, again? And where are any references to "plasma drives"? Anyone else here recall ever hearing that term?

If you haven't seen TOS then I'll have to run through and find some quotes for you. I don't own TOS so it will take some time. I'll have to Youtube it. As to the plasma drives, Spock reports to Kirk in STVI that just like the E-A, the Klingon BoP runs off of plasma which is what they used to track with the PT they later fired.

[Deepcrush]

I'm thinking the fusion quote id from 'Elaan of Troyius'. Scotty comments that the impulse engines are quite a bit faster than the Troyian's nuclear propulsion units.

Not the one I was thinking of but still works.

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

I'm thinking the fusion quote id from 'Elaan of Troyius'. Scotty comments that the impulse engines are quite a bit faster than the Troyian's nuclear propulsion units.

Not the one I was thinking of but still works.

Which episode? I've got them all on DVD. Might take me a minute, though.

[Deepcrush]

Couldn't tell you which ep. I don't have anyway to know which ep is which. I'll have to go to the DITL TOS ep list and try and find it. I'm not happy about that but such is such.