GCS Vs 12" Cannons

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

I was gonna post that maybe it was Uxbridge mucking the shields up... but I'd get shouted down, wouldn't I.

[Atekimogus]

Also, it isn't just the Dominion War we're using as evidence - there's also Organia (described as strategically important in "Errand of Mercy"), and Nelvana III (described as putting the Romulans within striking range of several Federation sectors in "The Defector") to name but two.

I am not sure iirc but wasn't organia considered a strategic target because of dilitiuhm deposits? No matter, you make a good point nevertheless.

Prove what? That the CU only had THREE (you forgot Cardassia Prime) major systems in their territory which would explain why they are thought of as a local power and have attack others for greater reasources and during a massive war all three of these places were points of heavy ground combat requiring the use of large number of ground troops? What about this is hard for you????

PS, just said that sentence out loud and felt like Ace Ventura.

Prove that the CU really had only three major systems because according to your logic, since nothing else was left, and we only "hear" about heavy fighting against the 11th order it does indeed mean that they only had 3 systems worth fighting for. Since we know they had more than that it does indeed indicate that they skipped some during their final push. Yelling is not proving nor making even a logical assumption. btw congrats on feeling like Ace Ventura.

First, you should get a map and find out how close Bajor and Cardassia prime were. The UFP declared that Bajor was inside the CU during the occupation. They weren't at the border, they were on the lawn heading to the front door.

You are probably right that in galactical terms cardassia was not far from bajor.

Second, that last battle was to be the last push of a two year long war in which the allies had turned the tide against their enemy and were pushing inwards against enemy territory. If you think the Allies missed something then you should try and find out what and prove it.

Last push of a two year war you say? Well that explains Admiral Ross' comment halfway into the episode that the dominion has withdrawn from previously allied controlled space into their own borders. Now I am surley not your calibre of tactical genius but to me that does not sound like the UFP + allys were on the offensive for the last two years.

Dumbfuck of a retard as you are... DS9 and Bajor's moons were enemy controlled, to the view of the Dominion. Wars aren't one sided. There are in fact two or even more sides in a war. Retaking the Bajor system gave the Allies a place to rest and repair and build up supply stocks and even hospitals.

And here I was thinking the reason for retaking DS9 was to gain once more control of the wormwhole. Since Bajor neither fought the dominion nor the UFP I do not see how they are even relevant for this discussion.

Wrong! First, read that statement and then go kick yourself in the balls. We don't need you breeding. Yes, your breeding was just insulted by a redneck, that should tell you where you stand. First, Bajor spent several months under Dominion Control. In fact that was the first battle of the war! Have you not seen the series... EVER? The fact that the Dominion didn't attack them was because Bajor didn't resist them.

First, after a first there comes usually a second, not a first. The number you are actually looking for in your argumentation is THIRD.
Second, the fact the dominion didn't attack them was because they had a treaty and wanted to prove to anyone that they honor such a thing. We do not see or hear about ground battles taking place, neither on bajor nor the moons, nor on DS9.

Second, no one ever said DS9 was a planet. The topic I covered was about the MOONS OF BAJOR! Read the f***ing statements before you make an ass out of yourself.

I do not know what you are babbling about moons. Yes they were there and some romulans and probably others put a hospital on it? The question you choosed to ignore was if they had to fight for it and the answer is no. The control of the system switched entirely due to battles in space.

You should expect that until your IQ reaches double digits, I will be very unfriendly.

I will try do move (down) to your level and then we surley can be friends.

I never said jack s**t about this so fuckoff if you're just going to try and play spin games. They don't work on me. Either face the debate topics and statements as they are or just don't talk at all.

Your point beeing? Are you seriously accusing me not to answer to an argument while your answer to a statement is writing this crap? Falling back to insults and wild accusations seems unoriginal, don't you think. If you look at the top of my post you can see that I concede to an argument if it is sensible and polite. Most of the time you seem unable to even do one of those things.

What plot holes? What the f**k are you bitching about? Seeing how no one has the budget to show a battle between an army of half a million cardis plus whatever the hell was strong enough to treat it like a cake walk. What does "seeing" the battles matter? We know they happened and were in fact important matters of the war. The only hole here is the one in your head where god should have plopped a brain instead of salad.

Please allow me to quote yourself to you:

If it is seen then it is canon. The goal is to try and remove the Hero Ship factor and figure the effects it has IU on its own for the layman.

I just assume you meant because we never see or hear it on screen but YOU say it is so and everyone knows it and it would make sense etc. it is a proven fact? Fascinating.


Now since this topic has splitted and is now about 12" guns vs. gcs shields I suggest we either use the other thread if you want to continue or stop altogether since the only merit in continuing I see would be finding out your favourite swear-words, something I can live without.

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

Also, it isn't just the Dominion War we're using as evidence - there's also Organia (described as strategically important in "Errand of Mercy"), and Nelvana III (described as putting the Romulans within striking range of several Federation sectors in "The Defector") to name but two.

I am not sure iirc but wasn't organia considered a strategic target because of dilitiuhm deposits? No matter, you make a good point nevertheless.

Nope. Strategic position only. No mention of dilithium whatsoever.

[Captain Seafort]

I was gonna post that maybe it was Uxbridge mucking the shields up... but I'd get shouted down, wouldn't I.

Not shouted down - simply corrected that Worf reported a 400GW impact, and no-one said a thing to suggest that losing the shields to such an impact was at all surprising, although the sudden increase in the Husnock ship's firepower was. Uxbridge certainly mucked up the shields, but he did it by somehow hitting the E-D with 400GW of KE.

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

I was gonna post that maybe it was Uxbridge mucking the shields up... but I'd get shouted down, wouldn't I.

Not shouted down - simply corrected that Worf reported a 400GW impact, and no-one said a thing to suggest that losing the shields to such an impact was at all surprising, although the sudden increase in the Husnock ship's firepower was. Uxbridge certainly mucked up the shields, but he did it by somehow hitting the E-D with 400GW of KE.

Okay, just checking. Thanks, Seafort.

[Captain Seafort]

Not a problem.

[m52nickerson]

Prove it you blithering idiot - provide evidence of combat occuring at such high relative speed.

For this point I don't have to, that fact that I showed that torpedoes are more then capable of traveling at that speed and high, like warp speed, and we don't see combat revolving around booting torpedo speed to inflict more damage points to the fact that KE attacks have little effect on shields.

Wrong - the example you gave made massive and unproven assumptions about the speed of a torpedo.

Do we not see torpedoes fired at warp speeds? Have we ever hear that a torpedo can't be fired by a ship traveling at full impulse?

You showed nothing but your own incompetence.

Then refute them.

Wrong, idiot - go back and read the post again.

Yes know we are to the point were all you have is name calling. Show me how you calculation are correct, oh.....you can't because they are not.

Go back and read that post again.

Did, your calculations are still wrong, and you have not shown hwo mine or the articles are. Maybe that is because you did not do those calculations and don't have any idea what you are talking about.

I don't have to - my argument is derived directly from the canon statement, which Darkstar completely failed to rebut.

......and I have shown that the calculation based on the canon statement to which you came to your conclution are wrong.

Kinetic energy is measured in joules. The energy of an impact, in joules, divided by the duration of that impact, in seconds, gives you the power of that impact, in watts. Is that simple enough for you?

This site says you fail - http://en.allexperts.com/q/Physics-1358 ... energy.htm
and this one http://www2.franciscan.edu/academic/Mat ... on-856.htm

Wrong, fuckwit. Go back and read the post again.

I did your calculations are still wrong, would you like me to show you again?

Wrong, fuckwit, I've done so repeatedly.

Saying I don't know does not address anything. Nor does ignoring my calculations without being able to prove them wrong.

400 GW you idiot - get the canon facts straight at least. You've shown nothing of the sort - the speed your using is massively exaggerated.

Yes 400 GW, you are right. MW is what your naval ship can do when I did the calculations correctly.

So, are you going to debate me and show me that my math is wrong and the statements made in the episode clearly can't be correct or are you just going to call me names?

[Mikey]

Staying out of this debate as far as your attempts to either buttress or decry canon, let me just point out that the links m52 just provide seem simply to say that force is measured in Newtons. Nobody ever denied that, so why are you referring us to those links? Seafort mentioned energy being measured in joules, and power being measured in watts. Then you responded by saying force is measured in Newtons - you are correct, but what does that have to do with anything? I could provide you with a link to an article that confirms that stop signs in the US are red, too, but I don't really see why I would.

[Mark]

Gentlemen, as a completely uninterested observer, does anybody honestly think this discussion is producing anything but name calling and heartburn?

Neither party is willing to concede, and not much is being accomplished aside from rehashing the same stuff

[m52nickerson]

After going through my old physics texts I found that I have made a mistake. Seafort's calculations were indeed correct. This would also push the impact energy of a torpedo traveling at 0.25c to 673,628,391,545,495 joules or 673,628,391 exajoules.

So any object about the size and weight of a torpedo moving at 0.25c would do much more then just drop shields if the statements from "Survivors" were correct.

Which is interesting when we look at this site and others that state the phasers and other energy weapons are in the TeraWatt range or TeraJoule/sec range.

One of two things must be going on, when you really start to look at the math for the Trek Universe you realize that it is not realistic and does not hold up to this leave of scrutiny or KE attacks do not do that much damage to shields.

Of course would not the fact that phasers are measured in watts which is J/s mean they are KE attacks?

[Deepcrush]

Really now this debate has gone on long enough. We have two people running circles and wasting our time. They've been proven wrong but don't have the balls to admit it. I think this thread should just be locked or offending parties warned for dishonest debating.

[Captain Seafort]

For this point I don't have to

Yes you do - you've made the claim that torpedos travel at significant fractions of c. If you want to make this claim you have to provide evidence of it. Evidence that starships can work there way up to that speed over the course of hours, while relevent in establishing their accelerative abilities, is of no relevence to the relative speeds of the ships in combat, and that's where the KE of a torpedo comes into play.

I showed that torpedoes are more then capable of traveling at that speed and high, like warp speed and we don't see combat revolving around booting torpedo speed to inflict more damage points to the fact that KE attacks have little effect on shields.

You've produced some extremely suspect figures based on an interpretation of ships' speed. I've provided a direct quote from "Survivors". All the calculations in the world won't change that quote - all I did was provide a real life comparison.

Do we not see torpedoes fired at warp speeds? Have we ever hear that a torpedo can't be fired by a ship traveling at full impulse?

Warp (an high impulse for that matter) is an entirely different situation, due to the mass-lightening Fed ships use as part of the warp drive. While they can't arbitrarilly reduce an object's mass, they can and do reduce it by several order of magnitude (per Deja Q), rendering Newtonian calculations useless.

This site says you fail - http://en.allexperts.com/q/Physics-1358 ... energy.htm
and this one http://www2.franciscan.edu/academic/Mat ... on-856.htm

1) Don't throw websites at me again - if you wish to make an argument, make it in your own words.

2) As Mikey's already pointed out, what's force got to do with KE?

After going through my old physics texts I found that I have made a mistake. Seafort's calculations were indeed correct.

Thank you.

This would also push the impact energy of a torpedo traveling at 0.25c to 673,628,391,545,495 joules or 673,628,391 exajoules.

Based on your assumption of a relative speed of 0.25c, and ignoring the effects of mass-lightening.

Which is interesting when we look at this site and others that state the phasers and other energy weapons are in the TeraWatt range or TeraJoule/sec range.

Which raises the question of why KE attacks of far less power are effective. The most likely scenario is that it isn't their energy that's the critical factor, but their momentum, which non-KE attacks don't have (or rather, have far less of).

One of two things must be going on, when you really start to look at the math for the Trek Universe you realize that it is not realistic and does not hold up to this leave of scrutiny or KE attacks do not do that much damage to shields.

Remember SoD - WYSIWYG.

Of course would not the fact that phasers are measured in watts which is J/s mean they are KE attacks?

Nope - any form of energy is measured in joules and watts, not just KE.

[m52nickerson]

Yes you do - you've made the claim that torpedos travel at significant fractions of c. If you want to make this claim you have to provide evidence of it. Evidence that starships can work there way up to that speed over the course of hours, while relevent in establishing their accelerative abilities, is of no relevence to the relative speeds of the ships in combat, and that's where the KE of a torpedo comes into play.

...and there is no reason that a ship after getting up to that speed could not fire a torpedo at a stationary ship. Could you also tell me were you are getting that a GCS acceleration rate is such that it would take hours to make it to 0.25c.

Warp (an high impulse for that matter) is an entirely different situation, due to the mass-lightening Fed ships use as part of the warp drive. While they can't arbitrarilly reduce an object's mass, they can and do reduce it by several order of magnitude (per Deja Q), rendering Newtonian calculations useless.

This makes sense, but at what impulse speeds does that mass-lightening affect take place? Even at a slightly lower speed the total energy of a torpedo size object would be tremendous.

1) Don't throw websites at me again - if you wish to make an argument, make it in your own words.

I was not useing those site to make my argument, just back it up.

Which raises the question of why KE attacks of far less power are effective. The most likely scenario is that it isn't their energy that's the critical factor, but their momentum, which non-KE attacks don't have (or rather, have far less of).

This makes sence, but still begs the question of why KE weapons are not used to at least take down shields before other weapons are used?

Remember SoD - WYSIWYG.

Remember that I don't subscribe to SoD as a way of analizing Sci-Fi. I see nothing in the forums rules that say SoD is to be strickly used. If those rules change then I will follow them.

[Sionnach Glic]

Really now this debate has gone on long enough. We have two people running circles and wasting our time. They've been proven wrong but don't have the balls to admit it. I think this thread should just be locked or offending parties warned for dishonest debating.

Don't backseat-mod. No one's forcing you to read the thread.

Personaly, I don't think this thread is going to come to a peaceful resolution, and I can easily see it being locked in the future if it continues to escalate. But for now, there's no reason to lock it. M52 and Seafort may yet reach a conclusion. The Scimitar debate went on for longer than this thread and was far more flammable, yet we reached a conclusion in the end.

[Deepcrush]

Don't backseat-mod. No one's forcing you to read the thread.

Didn't say anyone was.