Borg Weapon Adapting

[Sionnach Glic]

Replace the Federation defenders at AR-558 with a bunch of modern day soldiers and their equipment and watch the slaughter begin.
Even one soldier with a HMG could have held that area for ages.

[Teaos]

It does seem stupid. Our weapons are better than theirs.

[Captain Seafort]

Replace the Federation defenders at AR-558 with a bunch of modern day soldiers and their equipment and watch the slaughter begin.
Even one soldier with a HMG could have held that area for ages.

Never mind modern day - the Rorke's Drift force could have held that place against the Jem'Hadar's charge.

[Mikey]

Even better - give the defenders of AR-558 some "First Contact" type pulse phaser rifles, rather than those ridiculous, overgrown hand phasers.

Besides - without beam weapons, you lose a visual component of the whole "way in the future, super sci-fi" vibe.

[Teaos]

The TR-116 was pretty futureistic with its modifications.

[Sionnach Glic]

That was a projectile weapon, wasn't it?

[Teaos]

Yip designed or use when for what ever reasons phasers couldnt be used.

[Sionnach Glic]

I just remembered that we had a ten page or so long thread on it, which then turned into a thread about nearly everything else.
Just like where this thread is going.

[stormturmoil]

Something to bear in mid regarding the Borg and Kinetic weapons

1: Long term drones (not the 'just assimilated' types), have innate, inbuilt armour as part of their ongoing implant routine. That already degrades the reliability of a kinetic weapon. It may still do damage, but it Might not...and that's not a good gamble.

2: Most kinetic weapons cause damage through haemorhage and blood loss, shock, organ destruction and ultimately braindeath. The Borg can survive in Hard vacuum. This means that Haemorhage, blood loss, shock, organ destruction and even Braindeath must be irrelevant, or they couldn't do this.

This being the case, since the major means of inflicting fatalities is right out the window, what does that leave?

Well, Picard uses a Holographic Tommy gun, using forcefield bullets, and chews up a couple of drones pretty good. Worf cuts up some drones with a blade. Data is able to just generally pummel the Borg to death. Exposure to plasma dissolves their organic components outright and cripples them. Note it did not kill the queen outright (Picard had to finsh the job) , nor do we have reason to believe that any drone was killed, just rendered incapable)

All of this points more towards weapons needing to destroy sufficient hardware to disable a drone, rather than be able to kill it outright. If Anoxia, decompression and presumably braindeath caused by exposure to vacuum won't kill a borg, putting a few holes in them isn't likely to. Exploding their implants from the inside out (as a Phaser might) might do a better job.

so, there are your answers. Kinetic weapons are less likely to kill a borg than just inflict hardware destruction and incapacitate it, and to prevent that, all drones are eventually integrated with an armoured carapace, and possibly subdermal protection as well, as well as the adaptive shields.

So Kinetic weapons Might work, but its a dodgy gamble that might not pay off. Even if you could riddle a Borg with hundreds of rounds, it might not hit anything critical, and the drone would simply be heavier for all the lead! Even if you hit a critical implant in one borg, there's no guarantee it will be in the same place in the next, and there's no real cumulative damage with a borg: they don't feel pain, blood loss and shock won't work, organ destruction won't do any good. Even blowing their brains out or severing the spinal column might not stop them (Supplementary implants might be able to take over and run the body from elsewhere, maybe a nanoprobe to nanoprobe short range remote).

What physical means is left? a stake through the heart?

[Captain Seafort]

1: Long term drones (not the 'just assimilated' types), have innate, inbuilt armour as part of their ongoing implant routine. That already degrades the reliability of a kinetic weapon. It may still do damage, but it Might not...and that's not a good gamble.

Do you have evidence of this? The closest we've come to seeing "armoured" Borg was One, who was specifically mentioned as being superior to your average 24th century Borg.

2: Most kinetic weapons cause damage through haemorhage and blood loss, shock, organ destruction and ultimately braindeath. The Borg can survive in Hard vacuum. This means that Haemorhage, blood loss, shock, organ destruction and even Braindeath must be irrelevant, or they couldn't do this.

We don't know how the Borg survived the vacuum in First Contact. They might have a low-power atmospheric shield for example. Without this information we can't produce any hypothesis based on the assumption that drones can survive vacuum unprotected.

[Monroe]

Besides - without beam weapons, you lose a visual component of the whole "way in the future, super sci-fi" vibe.

From a marketing standpoint I can see what you mean. But there are lot of sci-fi universes that still use bullets so it can be done.

[Captain Seafort]

Besides - without beam weapons, you lose a visual component of the whole "way in the future, super sci-fi" vibe.

From a marketing standpoint I can see what you mean. But there are lot of sci-fi universes that still use bullets so it can be done.

Look at nBSG for example - not an energy weapon in sight and it's one of the best and most popular sci-fi series of the last few years, thanks to the solid underlying concept and good writing.

[Sionnach Glic]

Long term drones (not the 'just assimilated' types), have innate, inbuilt armour as part of their ongoing implant routine.

Care to provide evidence?

The Borg can survive in Hard vacuum. This means that Haemorhage, blood loss, shock, organ destruction and even Braindeath must be irrelevant, or they couldn't do this.

If the borg had their respiratory system replaced it would be quite simple for them to survive with a built in heating unit. Or, like Seafort suggested, if they have some sort of atmospheric shield.

Worf cuts up some drones with a blade.

And a bullet couldn't cause eqaul damage, why?

Data is able to just generally pummel the Borg to death.

And killing them by snaping their necks, this suggests the body is still controlled from the brain.

nor do we have reason to believe that any drone was killed, just rendered incapable)

Provide proof for this claim that they were able to survive their organic components getting destroyed.

putting a few holes in them isn't likely to.

They would still have important organs and/or mechanical replacements for them. Destroying these would knock the drones down, bullets could do this easily.

Exploding their implants from the inside out (as a Phaser might) might do a better job.

Show me evidence that phasers kill by 'exploding' the enemies insides.

Kinetic weapons are less likely to kill a borg than just inflict hardware destruction and incapacitate it,

If your enemy is unable to continue fighting their is little imediate difference. If you are incapacitated you are just as unable to keep fighting as you are dead.

and to prevent that, all drones are eventually integrated with an armoured carapace, and possibly subdermal protection as well,

Funny how you provided no evidence for either of these claims.

as well as the adaptive shields.

Which would do nothing against a bullet, as we already proved.

Even if you could riddle a Borg with hundreds of rounds, it might not hit anything critical, and the drone would simply be heavier for all the lead!

It would be rather difficult to miss anything important with that many bullets. And damage would still acumulate, even if you didn't hit anything important its likely it would just keel over from damage caused.

blood loss and shock won't work,

Blood loss (or whatever they use instead) would work. The organic components would still need blood to survive. If they lose all their blood they will die.

organ destruction won't do any good

Yes it would. Something has to keep the body running.

Even blowing their brains out or severing the spinal column might not stop them

We've seen Data kill them by breaking their necks. All evidence points to the brain still controling the bodies.

(Supplementary implants might be able to take over and run the body from elsewhere, maybe a nanoprobe to nanoprobe short range remote).

Funny how we see no evidence of this.

Woo hoo! Eight hundred posts!
I am now a Lieutenant Commander!

[Captain Seafort]

Congratulations Lieutenant Commander!

[Teaos]

I think drones still need everything we do it's just they are more resistant.