Scimitar vs. Sovereign

[Captain Seafort]

Because he probably was a talented commander by the standards of his peers. Look at the Romulans falling for his trick of partially dropping the cloaks, waiting for them to get close, and then slamming the brakes on.

[Deepcrush]

True enough... It was like watching Hot Shots again...

[Mark]

You just can't get very good without actual command experience, and as far as I know, that was the first time Shinzon commanded a ship. Since he served with the Remans during the DW, and Remans were ground troops, it stands to reason that he was an experienced ground commander. Huge difference. Completely different tactics.

[Deepcrush]

Just like how Spock picked out Khan's weakness in battle.

[Mark]

Just like how Spock picked out Khan's weakness in battle.

Exactly!

[Deepcrush]

For those of you who may not know. Khan fought in a 2d battle form... like one would on a planet. Kirk was able to use this to take the offensive because he knew how to fight battles in the 3d realm, being space.

[katefan]

For those of you who may not know. Khan fought in a 2d battle form... like one would on a planet. Kirk was able to use this to take the offensive because he knew how to fight battles in the 3d realm, being space.

I saw the film in the theatre back in '82, and the scene where Enterprise comes rising up behind Reliant was such an awesome moment I remember just freaking out, being a Total Fan. The direction of that battle is just awesome, and that sequence-Enterprise rising, blowing the crap out of Reliant-is just a tremendous series of visuals.

[Teaos]

I find it amusing that you think the idea of fighting in 3D is some amazing idea, automatic doors must be able to amuse you for ages.

[Deepcrush]

Its not about the 3d battle you dumbass... Its about seeing a warship pop up behind someone and they don't even know it until its too late.

[Teaos]

And its a pretty fucking avergae tactic that TOS fan boys circle jerk to as the most amazing move ever.

[katefan]

I find it amusing that you think the idea of fighting in 3D is some amazing idea, automatic doors must be able to amuse you for ages.

I am going to assume you are responding to me. First of all, in '82 I was only fifteen years old and it was, to borrow a pro wrestling term, a mark out moment for me, one that still sticks with me. Very few scenes in motion pictures have stuck with me for so long ("No, I am your father" is another that comes to mind.). Second, except for one scene in Empire Strikes Back very little space combat felt truly like three dimensions (the scene where Han Solo drives the 'Falcon straight "down" in relation to the three star destroyers, causing a collision) before TWOK. For example, the TIE fighter attack on the Millenium Falcon feels very much on the same plane. It is a limitation of the special effects of the time and I don't have a big deal with it.

But before that scene in TWOK never had the use of three dimensions in space combat been employed to such telling effect (well, okay, except maybe for Han Solo giving the Empire the middle finger in Empire), and it was a great scene. So much of Star Trek has battles taking place on the same plane and it is very boring, especially in a time where special effects makes 3D combat simple. Watch Star Wars, Ep. III to see what I mean.

So perhaps 3D combat is not an "amazing idea", but in terms of 'Trek it is one not often employed.

[katefan]

And its a pretty f***ing avergae tactic that TOS fan boys circle jerk to as the most amazing move ever.

Like I said, it is a pretty cool visual, certainly more captivating than ramming a ship that had plenty of time to get out of the way after a lackluster battle that-surprise-was fought largely on a 2D plane.

[Teaos]

Calling Shinzo stupid for not moving out of the way and not calling Khan stupid to not think of the Z axis is a little hypocritcal.

I guess its just personal preference but I find the E-E giving it literally everything she had, up to and including burning out her bloody phaser arrays was more impressive to watch than a few ships meandering through a cloud.

The E-E fighting the Scimitar reminds me of a little kid snapping and finally attacking a bully, they know they can't win but they'll bite/spit/claw with everything they got just to hurt the bad guy.

[katefan]

Calling Shinzo stupid for not moving out of the way and not calling Khan stupid to not think of the Z axis is a little hypocritcal.

The difference is Khan was from a culture without space travel and Shizon was. Khan was flying around in a stolen ship and Shizon was in command of one (presumably) designed just for him.

I guess its just personal preference but I find the E-E giving it literally everything she had, up to and including burning out her bloody phaser arrays was more impressive to watch than a few ships meandering through a cloud.

I suppose it would have been impressive, had we really known what the E-E could really do. Up until that point we saw it launch a couple shots at a Borg cube and pretty much get trashed by a couple ships in the briar patch.

The E-E fighting the Scimitar reminds me of a little kid snapping and finally attacking a bully, they know they can't win but they'll bite/spit/claw with everything they got just to hurt the bad guy.

Eh, judging from the speculation regarding the Scimitar's abilities, or lack of, I am not certain just how accurate that is. The Scimitar did not seem all that impressive.

[katefan]

And another thing about the Battle In The Mutara Nebula; Khan has the advantage and Kirk and Spock collaborate to make the playing field equal. We see tactical minds at work discovering a way to deprive a superior foe of his advantage. Then we had Chekov, weapon master, blow the hell out of Reliant without the need for any weapons lock.

What did we get in Nemesis? It's "The Perfect Cloak" and at no point did we get any indication that the brain trust on the Enterprise E had any idea to counteract it. Picard flew the ship directly into an area of space that put Enterprise at a tactical disadvantage, depriving him of his ability to call for reinforcements. Geordi did not look very impressive at engineering a solution, nor did Worf or Riker look very good tactically.

Picard looked like a fool. Yes, so did Kirk when Khan bushwhacked him early in ST II, but he was sorely out of practice and had been riding a desk for some time and honestly had not expected a genetically engineered super soldier to be helming a hijacked starship.