Scimitar vs. Sovereign

[Deepcrush]

The problem is that the Scimitar's shields weren't that great for the size of the thing. Her shields should have held a lot better then they did. Plus a large number of the hits landed by E-E caused internal damage. I would think the best thing for them is the cloak.

[Mikey]

Agreed. I think the Scimitar's shields don't represent anything more than the mere step-up in power which 'Trek has led us to believe comes with greater size.

[Thorin]

We've never seen a disrupter travel in anything other than a straight line.
We have seen torpedos manoeuvre around.
Suggests torpedoes.

Shinzon was a retard for our standards, but in Trek standards he was a good commander. If what we see weren't torpedoes, it means he never used torpedoes.
Suggests torpedoes.

There were no mention of 'secondary disrupters'.
Suggests torpedoes.

Very little evidence weighing up for disrupters.

Regardless - even if they were disrupters - which they aren't, he still knowingly blew a massive hole in the bridge of the E-E. He didn't care about hurting Picard or the E-E.

[Teaos]

The ones at the 1.34 mark are torpedoes, just like the ones that hit the E-E's bridge.

Torpedoes leave the ship at the same angle and then bank another direction. These blasts all leave the ship on a different angle. Thus they are disruptors. They do not change direction in flight like torpedoes do.

Also the rate of fire and they way they are used points at disruptors.

Besides the fact there is never any mention of '52 disrupters plus 104 secondary disrupters',

Are you being intentionally stupid? Worf mentioned it had 52 disruptors when they first saw the ship, fact. We see it fire two big arse disruptors up front (the shots we see that take out the warp drive) we also see numerous other disruptors firing from other positions around the ship, these are the standard colour for disruptors and obviously weaker, "I" call them secondary disruptors since they are obviously inferior to the main guns. No its not a canon word its something I made up to discribe the use of the disruptors that arent the main ones. If you cannot grasp that simple concept please tell me now so I can stop debating with you.

inzon still orders hits on the bridge, which blew cleanly through the hull. Either way, Shinzon wasn't scared of holding back and hitting the hull at the risk of Picard killing

He fired his weaker guns at the bridge area when he was in the perfect postion to fire his big arse guns. Explain that please? You insist he is not holding back yet he is obviously doing so.

The problem is that the Scimitar's shields weren't that great for the size of the thing.

Are you kidding? The shields are fucking epic! I did a run down on the amount of damage the thing took and it was huge. Close to a dozen QT's and literally dozens of phaser and disruptor balsts. NOTHING bar a Borg cube has come close to that sort of damage.

Shinzon was a retard for our standards, but in Trek standards he was a good commander. If what we see weren't torpedoes, it means he never used torpedoes.
Suggests torpedoes.

No it suggests that he is holding back, as I have proved multiple times and you cannot counter apparently.

There were no mention of 'secondary disrupters'.
Suggests torpedoes.

...retard.

he still knowingly blew a massive hole in the bridge of the E-E

Massive hole? it was about 6 by 4 meters, and it blew out what was apparently a rather thin bit of hull judging by the clip.

[Thorin]

Torpedoes leave the ship at the same angle and then bank another direction. These blasts all leave the ship on a different angle. Thus they are disruptors. They do not change direction in flight like torpedoes do.

Also the rate of fire and they way they are used points at disruptors.

We've seen the E-E's torpedoes leave the ship at all different angles. We've seen the E-E fire 4 torpedoes in a second.
Hope that helps.

He fired his weaker guns at the bridge area when he was in the perfect postion to fire his big arse guns. Explain that please? You insist he is not holding back yet he is obviously doing so.

Besides the fact he fires torpedoes, how do you know he was in the perfect position? I didn't realise they had brought out a 3D render of the battle and the firing arcs.

No it suggests that he is holding back, as I have proved multiple times and you cannot counter apparently.

You have proved nothing. Firing torpedoes at the bridge is trying not to kill Picard? He didn't care about hitting the E-E.

...retard.

Nice one, you've earned that moderator tag well.

Massive hole? it was about 6 by 4 meters, and it blew out what was apparently a rather thin bit of hull judging by the clip.

Hmm, he blew out 100 cubic metres of duranium, tritanium, and ablative alloys, about 5 metres from where Picard was sitting.
No, really, he was holding back.

Well done for not addressing my points at disrupters only ever travelling in a straight line [the torps Shinzon fires do move about], and you thinking Shinzon never fired a single torpedo.

Wasn't Blackstar banned for assholery that included petty name calling and refusing to address points he couldn't counter?

[Teaos]

We've seen the E-E's torpedoes leave the ship at all different angles. We've seen the E-E fire 4 torpedoes in a second.
Hope that helps.

Video please? Every shot I see leaves the ship at a 90 degree angle and then banks, it also fires torpedoes in bursts, the Scimitar fires shots at even intervals over several seconds... kinda like disruptors blasts.

Besides the fact he fires torpedoes, how do you know he was in the perfect position? I didn't realise they had brought out a 3D render of the battle and the firing arcs.

OMG. Please, please, PLEASE. I beg of you Thorin. Watch the motherfucking video, it is really hard to debate this if you don't. The Scimitar is coming in from a fair distance, it is facing down the E-E, head on, and then it fires, the big arse guns are foward facing and are thus in the PERFECT position to fire. Yet they dont. Explain that or GTFO.

You have proved nothing. Firing torpedoes at the bridge is trying not to kill Picard? He didn't care about hitting the E-E.

He was in the position to use the big guns, he did not. Point proved.

Nice one, you've earned that moderator tag well.

I call an apple an apple and a retard a retard.

Well done for not addressing my points at disrupters only ever travelling in a straight line [the torps Shinzon fires do move about], and you thinking Shinzon never fired a single torpedo.

Can you point to the bit where the "torpedoes" move around please? I watched the video again and couldnt spot them moving around, probably because they are disruptors, but still, I'm open minded, I'll watch it again and try to spot it.

I did address the torpedo point, my whole point is he was holding back, honestly are you reading my posts or watching the video?

Wasn't Blackstar banned for assholery that included petty name calling and refusing to address points he couldn't counter?

Name calling had nothing to do with it. Infact read the new rules and guidelines that are at the top of every forum now, you'll see whats acceptable and whats not, I should know, I wrote half of them.

And I have replied to every single one of your points, you are the one who has yet to address my points about the big guns never being used again when there was ample oppertunity for it.

List me a point I have ignored and I will counter it just like I have countered your whole half arsed debate.

EDIT: Your point of them blowing out 100 square meter of alloy ect, firstly where the hell did you get that number?

Secondly, the video at 2:19, shows how stupidly thin the hull is there. Infact it seems to be mostly wires and stuff not ablative armour like you claim. I know it sucks but your gonna have to actually watch the video to see that.

[Thorin]

Video please? Every shot I see leaves the ship at a 90 degree angle and then banks, it also fires torpedoes in bursts, the Scimitar fires shots at even intervals over several seconds... kinda like disruptors blasts.

In the Nemesis one, there are plenty. Particularly just after the Scimitar loses its cloak and the E-E fires its aft torpedoes at quite an angle downwards.

OMG. Please, please, PLEASE. I beg of you Thorin. Watch the motherfucking video, it is really hard to debate this if you don't. The Scimitar is coming in from a fair distance, it is facing down the E-E, head on, and then it fires, the big arse guns are foward facing and are thus in the PERFECT position to fire. Yet they dont. Explain that or GTFO.

For one, you don't know it's in position, and two, they were torpedoes anyway. So he uses the biggest guns he's got.

He was in the position to use the big guns, he did not. Point proved.

He didn't use them, he used torpedoes. Though you've still not addressed the fact he fired at the bridge at all. Another lack of addressing.

Can you point to the bit where the "torpedoes" move around please? I watched the video again and couldnt spot them moving around, probably because they are disruptors, but still, I'm open minded, I'll watch it again and try to spot it.

The ones fired at the bridge and the ones fired at the ventral hull of the Valdore are the same projectiles. The ones fired at the ventral hull of the Valdore have a lot of movement. They curve round.

I did address the torpedo point, my whole point is he was holding back, honestly are you reading my posts or watching the video?

You're saying he never used torpedoes on the Valdore either, which there is no debate about him holding back.

Name calling had nothing to do with it. Infact read the new rules and guidelines that are at the top of every forum now, you'll see whats acceptable and whats not, I should know, I wrote half of them.

Stoop all you want, doesn't make your argument any more credible. Or credible at all.

And I have replied to every single one of your points, you are the one who has yet to address my points about the big guns never being used again when there was ample oppertunity for it.

Replying is not countering them.

You have completely and utterly failed to counter the following points -
The projectiles used against the Valdore's belly are the same as the torpedoes used on the E-E's bridge, so you're telling me he never uses torpedoes, even against the Valdores?
They move in curved paths - disrupters only ever move in straight lines
Regardless of all this, he still aimed at the bridge, knowingly, to create a massive hole in it.
Talk about hypocripsy - you ask me where you failed to address my points, where you should have actualyl responded to my point about Shinzon ripping out 100 cubic metres of the E-E's hull right where Picard was sitting.

[Teaos]

n the Nemesis one, there are plenty. Particularly just after the Scimitar loses its cloak and the E-E fires its aft torpedoes at quite an angle downwards.

I'm not positive about which event you are talking about. The one at 1:02 is a 90 degree shot. The one at 1:45 is a hard anlge to judge but doesnt seem to be very steep, it could have easily banked the torpedoes after it lef the tube but it is a bit iffy. The ship is also turning making it harder to tell.

For one, you don't know it's in position, and two, they were torpedoes anyway. So he uses the biggest guns he's got

What do you mean I dont know its position? I can see it. I have eyes, two of them, I watched the video, I pointed it out to you, what more do you want? It was a head on run, the Scimitar has its big guns up front. It could use them, it didnt. What is your explanation for this?

e didn't use them, he used torpedoes. Though you've still not addressed the fact he fired at the bridge at all. Another lack of addressing.

I cant debate you on the torpedo point, you wont see reason. And I have addressed the point Thorin, I said he fired at the bridge area (in front of the bridge acutally) with his weak disruptors.

And I have addressed the point Thorin, I said he fired at the bridge area (in front of the bridge acutally) with his weak disruptors.

And I have addressed the point Thorin, I said he fired at the bridge area (in front of the bridge acutally) with his weak disruptors.

See I repeated myself three times so you wont miss it this time.

The ones fired at the bridge and the ones fired at the ventral hull of the Valdore are the same projectiles. The ones fired at the ventral hull of the Valdore have a lot of movement. They curve round.

You are refering to the area of video 1:30 - 1:40.

All the blasts travel in a straight line like disruptors do. They LEAVE the ship at different angle like disruptors do and like Torpedoes are unable to do.

You're saying he never used torpedoes on the Valdore either, which there is no debate about him holding back.

I'm saying he used what weapons were in range, since the warbird came for in from behind he used the disrptors facing that way (I have refrained from using the term secondary disruptors since you cannot grasp that concept). They seem more than up to the job.

Considering the speed of that fly-by disruptors are a much safer bet than torpedoes.

The projectiles used against the Valdore's belly are the same as the torpedoes used on the E-E's bridge, so you're telling me he never uses torpedoes, even against the Valdores?

Answered that multiple times. Its disruptors (the secondary ones at that). I believe someone awhile ago agreed with me on that point to.

They move in curved paths - disrupters only ever move in straight lines

See now your just lying. Give me an exact time reference cause every shot I see leave the ship then continues in a straight line.

Regardless of all this, he still aimed at the bridge, knowingly, to create a massive hole in it.

I laugh at what you consider massive. And I have pointed out several times that he used weaker guns and is not very rational.

Talk about hypocripsy - you ask me where you failed to address my points, where you should have actualyl responded to my point about Shinzon ripping out 100 cubic metres of the E-E's hull right where Picard was sitting.

Again please tell me where the number of 100m comes from? I provided video eviedence that the hull there doesnt even look a meter thick and is full of wires. You fail to counter me, not the other way around.

[Thorin]

I'm not positive about which event you are talking about. The one at 1:02 is a 90 degree shot. The one at 1:45 is a hard anlge to judge but doesnt seem to be very steep, it could have easily banked the torpedoes after it lef the tube but it is a bit iffy. The ship is also turning making it harder to tell.

The torpedoes in that case are leaving at an angle, and they are in lots of circumstances. Watch the video, you don't need to feign ignorance you know, there are plenty of occasions that they leave at different angles (another is when the E-E sweeps across to the left, I think after the Valdores have shown up, and after it's fired that 4 shot burst).

What do you mean I dont know its position? I can see it. I have eyes, two of them, I watched the video, I pointed it out to you, what more do you want? It was a head on run, the Scimitar has its big guns up front. It could use them, it didnt. What is your explanation for this?

It used torpedoes. They're even bigger than disrupters.

I cant debate you on the torpedo point, you wont see reason. And I have addressed the point Thorin, I said he fired at the bridge area (in front of the bridge acutally) with his weak disruptors.

Replying to my point that has no relevance to my point means nothing. The fact he fires AT ALL at the bridge says lots.

You are refering to the area of video 1:30 - 1:40.

All the blasts travel in a straight line like disruptors do. They LEAVE the ship at different angle like disruptors do and like Torpedoes are unable to do.

No, they change direction. They both leave the ship at different angles and change direction. I can't even talk to you if you're unable to see a simple moving projectile.

I'm saying he used what weapons were in range, since the warbird came for in from behind he used the disrptors facing that way (I have refrained from using the term secondary disruptors since you cannot grasp that concept). They seem more than up to the job.

Considering the speed of that fly-by disruptors are a much safer bet than torpedoes.

The fact they change direction somewhat means they are torpedoes.

Again please tell me where the number of 100m comes from? I provided video eviedence that the hull there doesnt even look a meter thick and is full of wires. You fail to counter me, not the other way around.

All your points are moot until you address this.

I accept your concession until you go beyond "I saw this, yes", and say "I saw this, yes, and I counter the fact that Shinzon aimed at the bridge at all with ...."
(The dots are where you write your counter point, which you have none).
And you're so unbelievably pedantic - 100 cubic metres was a ballpark figure. You can't scale it properly, but even if the hole was 1 cubic metre, he still fires at the bridge.

Anyway, the fact he fired at the bridge shows he didn't care about hurting the E-E (or more specifically, Picard), regardless of the weapon used, even though they were torpedoes.

[Teaos]

The torpedoes in that case are leaving at an angle, and they are in lots of circumstances. Watch the video, you don't need to feign ignorance you know, there are plenty of occasions that they leave at different angles (another is when the E-E sweeps across to the left, I think after the Valdores have shown up, and after it's fired that 4 shot burst).

Feigning ignornace? I wasnt sure which point you were refering to so I responded to both just incase.

When the warbird flies over the Scimitar the Scimitar is firing a constant stream of fire right up until the point where the BOP is almost right above it, that angle is far to step for a torpedo to be fired at by easy for a disruptor. Thus they are disruptors.

It used torpedoes. They're even bigger than disrupters.

LOL nice way of avoiding my point, I prove you wrong and you side step, firstly you fail to explain why he didnt use the big guns, then you make a claim that the torpedoes are apparently more powerful than the big guns, now I have no idea which is more powerful, the big guns or the torpedoes, there is no way for us to know for sure, but since he used the big guns in the opening salvo we can assume they are the most powerful, you have to agree with me here since you insist he is going all out and thus he would use his best weapon there.

Replying to my point that has no relevance to my point means nothing. The fact he fires AT ALL at the bridge says lots

It says that he is not the sharpest tool in the shed which I have been happy to admit to from the start, I also point out that he used weak guns and not the big ones when he could have. You again fail to explain that point away.

No, they change direction. They both leave the ship at different angles and change direction. I can't even talk to you if you're unable to see a simple moving projectile.

I have watch they video multiple times, I am seriously doubting whether you have watched it once. From the moment they leave the ship they do not change direction.

The fact they change direction somewhat means they are torpedoes.

You know its not nice to lie.

I accept your concession until you go beyond "I saw this, yes", and say "I saw this, yes, and I counter the fact that Shinzon aimed at the bridge at all with ...."

This debate would be so much easier Thorin if you would bother to read my posts and watch the video.

"I saw this, yes, and I counter the fact that Shinzon aimed at the bridge at all with ...."... the fact that:

1) he used his weak disruptors

2) He aimed infront of the bridge not the bridge directly

3) As i have always said he aint exactly rational and his medical problem seems to be geting worse by the looks of things.


Now my points that you have been failing to address.

When he went for the bridge he fired his disruptors (or if you insist on being an idiot torpedoes), we know the big guns are the most powerful on the ship as that is what he used in the opening salvo where he would obviously use his biggest guns. Why did he not use his big guns here when the was able (and yes they were in range, if you yet again say they arent you are truely an idiot since it is blatantly obvious they are lined up).

Why does he not use those big guns against the E-E during the battle more often as he is again in the position to use them several times and doesnt. This shows he is holding back and unless you counter that point you accept he is holding back.

Give me an exact time when we see a "torpedo" bank IN FLIGHT.

[Thorin]

I don't have an exact time, I'm watching it on DVD, and you know precisely when I mean - as it's hitting the belly of the Valdore. They curve round in a sort of backwards 'C' path.

And aiming at the bridge - he used weak disrupters. Well, he didn't, but regardless if he fired fucking bullets at it, he's still aiming for Picard. You are unable to comprehend this simple fact.
He aimed infront of the bridge? Are you BLIND?!?! HE TAKES OUT THE VIEWSCREEN. THE VIEWSCREEN IN THE BRIDGE.
He ain't rational? That's true, but then your earlier claim that Shinzon would hold back to make sure Picard was safe is complete rubish - you are now saying he wouldn't hold back because he doesn't care about Picard because he's irrational.

If you're unable to see that the torpedoes take a curved path when they're hitting the Valdore, and that they're the same as the ones hitting the bridge, then you need to get some new glasses.

Just because he used them in the opening salvo means nothing. Just because any ship uses phasers or disrupters before firing a torpedo it means they're holding back? He could have been testing the E-E's shields, seeing how much punishment they can take before using torpedoes. Maybe it was a completely arbitrary use of disrupters first. Why did the E-E not start firing quantums from the start? It's a completely moot point, there are so many unknowns and off screen battling.

He might not be able to use the big guns - I'm assuming they must have some reload/recharge? Otherwise you could just say that a ship could fire a constant stream of torpedoes or a constant phaser beam indefnitely.

The fact he fires at Picard with ANY weapon shows he wasn't scared of hurting either the E-E or Picard. The end.

[Sionnach Glic]

Okay, I'm just going to chime in here with one thing:

The strike against the bridge hit the bridge itself, not the area in front of this. We know this because there was a fracking great hole in the front of the bridge, and no damage in front of it.


Teaos: I've just noticed you made a sort of rebuttal to my analysis of the Scimitar, for some reason I never spotted it before. I'd normaly just reply to it anyway, but given that it's three pages back and I'd be interupting your debate with Thorin, I'm going to leave it alone for now. If you want me to reply to it, though, I'm more than willing to.

[kostmayer]

Given that

a) He asks for Picard to surrender himself
b) He tells his crew to target weapons systems and shields as he doesn't want the Enterprise destroyed
c) He sends a boarding party to retrieve Picard

can't we just agree that he was holding back, but he was just doing a piss poor job of it?

As for him shooting out the front of the Bridge - is it possible he was just trying to blow everyone out into space in order to scoop Picard up? Silly idea, but he was a nutcase.

On another note, I do love how the filmed the ramming scene. If it was a DS9 battle they'd have just hit each other and both gone kaboom - here you get the impression that its two large and powerful ships and not a couple of starfighters.

[Sionnach Glic]

I'd actualy be willing to believe that the shot that struck the bridge was a total accident. The other shots went nowhere near the bridge (well, they went nowhere near the ship at all, but let's just chalk that up the gunner having a seizure) which, to me, indicates that it was an accidental shot.
Either that, or Shinzon thought the bridge armour would survive the impact, and just wanted to frighten Picard. Which is pretty fucking stupid, but I think we can all agree Shinzon was a few fries short of a Happy Meal.

I'd also like to point out that I'm not taking anyone's side in this debate. There are stuff that both Thorin and Teaos have said that I agree with. I'm just going to chime in occasionaly to point stuff out.

[kostmayer]

Another point (I'm watching as I post )

At no point does Shinzon order torpedoes to be fired. And just before he deploys his weapon, his officer on the bridge only says that disruptors are offline, not torpedoes.

Is it possible that none of his 27 torpedo bays are actually loaded?