Yesterday's Enterprise

Post by **Teaos** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:41 pm

We have the telepathic link with that one 8472. While that could just be a one off it is still worrysome.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 2:47 pm

Wasn't he trapped on a borg cube? He could simply have been rather p****d off and started threatning them.
Or he could have meant 'we're going to wipe out you' (his enemies).
Perhaps they thought the borg controlled the entire galaxy.
Perhaps it was an empty threat.
Perhaps he's just a genocidal maniac.

Relying on one quote, when the majority of evidence stands against it, isn't a great idea.

What we do have evidence for is that 8471 were defending themselves from outside agrresors, and that they had not fired the first shot (which they surely would have done if they were bent on conquest).

Post by **Teaos** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 3:01 pm

* 8472 was super powerful and blowing up whole planets.

* While it was only one quote it is disturbing. Also can someone who has access to the scripts (I know someone here does) get the exact quote I think it is rather specific in what it says about other races.

* The Borg may have started it but we had to put up with the results of the attack. It would not have been wise to let a super alien species grab a foot hold in our Galaxy if we could avoid it (Which we could)

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 3:06 pm

* 8472 was super powerful and blowing up whole planets.

Planets which were under the control of a hostile power. How does this translate into a will to invade the whole galaxy?

* While it was only one quote it is disturbing. Also can someone who has access to the scripts (I know someone here does) get the exact quote I think it is rather specific in what it says about other races.

If someone here has the scripts, I'd be interested in seeing the quote myself.

* The Borg may have started it but we had to put up with the results of the attack. It would not have been wise to let a super alien species grab a foot hold in our Galaxy if we could avoid it (Which we could)

1) Yes, the Borg started it. 8472 never attacked, despite knowing about us and having the power to invade.

2) We never had to put up with the results of the attack. The only attacks were against Borg ships, we never heard of any attacks against other races.

3) It might not be a bad idea if it gets rid of the Borg.

Post by **Mikey** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 3:42 pm

And, even if we extrapolate from that one individual's quote, we can assume a very good probability that what he "said" was an emotional repsonse to feeling theatened (by the Borg.)

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:36 pm

From the script, immediately after Voyager escapes from the bioship that attacked it while they were investigating the Borg "graveyard".

Scorpian part 1 wrote:JANEWAY: Kes...?

KES: I could hear its thoughts... the pilot of the bio- ship it tried to
communicate with me

Kes concentrates, trying to make sense of the impressions.

KES: They're a telepathic species... I think I've been aware of them for
some time now... the premonitions... (beat) Captain, it's not the Borg
we should be worried about... it's them.

JANEWAY: What did it say to you?

Kes looks at her.

KES: It said. "The weak will perish."

Later, after Voyager detects the "northwest passage" filled with bioships emerging from fluidic space:

KES: They come from a place where they're alone... nothing else lives
there...

CHAKOTAY: Some kind of parallel universe...

KES: I don't know...

Kes shivers a little, struck by a sudden malevolence...

KES: I feel... malevolence... a cold hatred... (thinks) The weak... will
perish... it's an invasion... they intend to destroy everything...

In part 2, during the battle

KES: I can hear them... they want to talk. through me...

Kes concentrates... then turns to Janeway...

KES: They saywe've contaminated their realm.

Janeway hesitates- this is a strange way to make First Contact.

JANEWAY: (to Kes) Tell them... we had no choice. we were only trying to
defend ourselves.

INTER CUT:

104 MENTAL FLASH (OPTICAL)
An ALIEN FACE, aggressive, terrifying!

104A RESUME KES
as she "listens" to the aliens

KES: They say our galaxy... is impure. Its proximity is a threat to
their... genetic integrity.

JANEWAY: Tell them we have a weapon... a devastating weapon that can
destroy them at the cellular level. (beat) If they don't stop their
attacks on the Delta Quadrant... we'll be forced to use it.

Kes thinks...

KES: They said, Your galaxy... will be purged.

The first was in response to a unidentified ship whose crew had been poking around both inside a recently disabled enemy ship, and aboard the 8472's own ship. The second was during the assault phase of an incursion from their own space into known hostile territory. The final one was communicating with an intruder into their space, which only enemy forces had done before, equipped with the technology of that known enemy. I would say that the first and last can be explained as aggression towards an enemy, with a good dose of psychological warfare. The other was during the middle of an attack, where aggression is key to success. It's hardly a good way to determine the default attitude of a species towards other species.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:47 pm

So the whole 'we'll destroy you're galaxy' line was in response to Voyager, who had attacked them with no provocation, threatening to commit xenocide.
Sounds more like they were trying to threaten her to me.

Post by **Teaos** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:01 am

There is response to an attack and then there is purging our galaxy.

I think that although this was done under war time it is still troubling as hell and Voyager did the right thing.

It would have been best if this had been avoided by the Borg never attacking but now they are attacking our galaxy we had no choice.

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:18 am

Great, we ticked off a super powerful race! Yea! We're smart!

Post by **Teaos** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:39 am

They were already ticked off and we have this neat ability to turn them into dust.

Post by **Mikey** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:49 pm

Since this whole debate is based on arbitrary interpretation, here's another one:

The phrase "The weak will perish" could conceivably have been used to refer to the Borg. Not "Everyone besides us is weak, and must perish," but "The folks that attacked us are weaker than us, and they will perish."

Couple the context of the times that 8472 communicated their alleged threats with the fact that our space was different enough from their home space to be useful for territorial expansion, and I think it fair to say that 8472 may not have been the conquest-crazed universe invaders that they were presumed to be. A potential threat? Absolutely, and a notification of our abilities against them by Janeway was definitely in line.

And, of course, we're assuming that the individual that Kes made contact with was NOT an atypical xenophobe.

Granitehewer · Post by **Granitehewer** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:54 pm

such a passionate warcry as 'the weak shall perish', to me,sounds more like a defensive individual, impassioned and taking the offensive, rather than a long harboured cultural imperative

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:54 pm

There is response to an attack and then there is purging our galaxy.

And how would they know who inhabits this galaxy. Remember, we never heard of them attacking any other race than the borg.
And the borg control a lot of space, 8472 may have thought that the borg controled the entire galaxy.
And we still have no proof that the whole 'purge the galaxy' line is anything but an empty threat.

I think that although this was done under war time it is still troubling as hell and Voyager did the right thing.

What? Declaring war on them? Yeah, that sure is the right thing.

It would have been best if this had been avoided by the Borg never attacking but now they are attacking our galaxy we had no choice.

1) They're not attacking the galaxy, they're attacking the borg. There's a difference.
2) We did have a choice: not declaring war on them.

They were already ticked off and we have this neat ability to turn them into dust.

They were ticked off because we attacked them. I think anyone would be rather anoyed after an unprovoked attack on them.

And the abilities they have is irrelevent. Sure, they could probably destroy every planet in the galaxy. That dosen't mean they would, and sure as hell dosen't mean that we should antagonise them.

Post by **Teaos** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:43 am

All evedience points to them being very xenophobic.

And they didnt want to take us over they just wanted us gone. Elimainate life and a possible threat so they can go back to being the only species in known space.

Post by **Mikey** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:16 am

All evedience points to them being very xenophobic.

Unfortunately, all the evidence to which you refer is both limted and circumstantial.

8472 were supposedly the only sentient life in their own space. There would be no concept among them of limiting warfare to one out of many various possible enemies - by making the alleged threat that it did, that one individual 8472 could very well be simply stating his intention to wage war against his persecutors, without having the language or ideation to name one specific enemy species. Indeed, the very concept of more than one independent sentient race was probably wholly alien, and a little confusing, to it.