USS Stargazer

[Graham Kennedy]

When Shelby suggested that Picard was assisting the Borg, Hansen went into a speech about seeing him win the academy marathon and how he got to know him afterwards. He's known Picard since Picard's early 20s, a good 40 years or so.

[Mark]

I replied last night, but when I posted I was booted from DITL's forum, which was a pisser since I went through all that trouble. So this is going by memory. I am addressing certain points raised, both pro and con.

First of all, I do not know if that was actually Ferengi space where Picard and company were at. In unexplored territory it could have been two ships far afield running into one another. If it was Ferengi space then I stand corrected, but I was under the impression no one was quite sure Ferengi space even was for a while.

Second, leaving a ship behind in any condition can be potentially dangerous for the Federation. It's computer core can tell a lot about Starfleet, for example. A thorough examination of Sickbay and life support can tell a species a lot about the biology of the crew. Examination of the weapons and technology, even out of date, can still provide clues regarding the sophistication of the Federation in general.

Third, did it ever occur to anyone Picard was considering coming back to the Stargazer once it was abandoned? The ship apparently was on it's way to blowing up, I assume that he was told as much, or looked at the evidence/data and judged the ship too dangerous to stay on. So he ordered abandon ship. If the ship did not blow then likely he would have come back had he and the crew had not been rescued (I am still uncertain regarding the details) as a disabled starship makes a far better life boat.

Fourth, if abandoning an intact ship is such a crime, then every captain at Wolf 359 should be court marsheled, correct? I saw a lot of intact ships floating about. I guess every single captain at that battle should have strode down to engineering and shot the warp core or something. How dare they leave their ships behind to make a dramatic scene for Best of Both World II!

Fifth, what if Picard ordered the ship to self destruct and it malfunctioned?

Sixth, what if Picard did not want to self destruct the ship because he did not want the explosion to wipe out his crew, floating helplessly in nearby space in life pods?

Finally, what if Picard could not destroy his ship? We saw in both TOS and TNG episodes that it takes at least two people to set a ship to self destruct. If the XO is dead perhaps Picard could not initiate a self destruct. And if the warp core was diabled phasering it would not have detonated it.

Your first and and second points are excellent. I think your right regarding being in unexplored space, but honestly I don't remember for sure. After starting this tread, I've been meaning to re-watch this episode, and I'll try and to that tonight. Now, on to the points warrenting disagreement.

When Picard was recounting the abandonment of Stargazer, he mentioned it took them weeks to reach help. That is a REALLY long time to leave a valuable piece of hardware floating in space, basically "up for grabs" to anybody coming by. And we really have no idea if Picard or Starfleet DID go back and look for it, which is understandable if you consider the "boys club" theory, because if they DID send another ship back to look for Stargazer, that could be seen as acknowledging Picard screwed the proverbial pooch.

Addressing your third and fifth points, if he thought the ship was going to explode, wouldn't the have noticed a lack of an explosion on the shuttle's sensors? At that point, at least his shuttle SHOULD have gone back to make sure of the ship.

Wolf 359 was an unusual case as far as battlefields go. First, it was a hostile and active battlezone, with combat actually taking place around these ships that were being disabled. Second, it was well within Federation space, so it was more realistic for Starfleet to be able recover any still salvageable ships.

Now, on to wiping out his crew. I believe he said that they crammed into shuttlecraft to limp home. Now, we KNOW at least some shuttles are warp capable, and I'm assuming that those restricted to impulse were either left behind or tractored along (since we don't know how many survivors there were from Stargazer). With a long enough countdown they could have escaped.

And last, as we have all seen and discussed, even if the auto destruct sequence itself was disabled or couldn't be initiated for whatever reason, there are plenty of ways to destroy a starship (hell, the challange is usually to keep one FROM blowing up)

[katefan]

I replied last night, but when I posted I was booted from DITL's forum, which was a pisser since I went through all that trouble. So this is going by memory. I am addressing certain points raised, both pro and con.

First of all, I do not know if that was actually Ferengi space where Picard and company were at. In unexplored territory it could have been two ships far afield running into one another. If it was Ferengi space then I stand corrected, but I was under the impression no one was quite sure Ferengi space even was for a while.

Second, leaving a ship behind in any condition can be potentially dangerous for the Federation. It's computer core can tell a lot about Starfleet, for example. A thorough examination of Sickbay and life support can tell a species a lot about the biology of the crew. Examination of the weapons and technology, even out of date, can still provide clues regarding the sophistication of the Federation in general.

Third, did it ever occur to anyone Picard was considering coming back to the Stargazer once it was abandoned? The ship apparently was on it's way to blowing up, I assume that he was told as much, or looked at the evidence/data and judged the ship too dangerous to stay on. So he ordered abandon ship. If the ship did not blow then likely he would have come back had he and the crew had not been rescued (I am still uncertain regarding the details) as a disabled starship makes a far better life boat.

Fourth, if abandoning an intact ship is such a crime, then every captain at Wolf 359 should be court marsheled, correct? I saw a lot of intact ships floating about. I guess every single captain at that battle should have strode down to engineering and shot the warp core or something. How dare they leave their ships behind to make a dramatic scene for Best of Both World II!

Fifth, what if Picard ordered the ship to self destruct and it malfunctioned?

Sixth, what if Picard did not want to self destruct the ship because he did not want the explosion to wipe out his crew, floating helplessly in nearby space in life pods?

Finally, what if Picard could not destroy his ship? We saw in both TOS and TNG episodes that it takes at least two people to set a ship to self destruct. If the XO is dead perhaps Picard could not initiate a self destruct. And if the warp core was diabled phasering it would not have detonated it.

Your first and and second points are excellent. I think your right regarding being in unexplored space, but honestly I don't remember for sure. After starting this tread, I've been meaning to re-watch this episode, and I'll try and to that tonight. Now, on to the points warrenting disagreement.

When Picard was recounting the abandonment of Stargazer, he mentioned it took them weeks to reach help. That is a REALLY long time to leave a valuable piece of hardware floating in space, basically "up for grabs" to anybody coming by. And we really have no idea if Picard or Starfleet DID go back and look for it, which is understandable if you consider the "boys club" theory, because if they DID send another ship back to look for Stargazer, that could be seen as acknowledging Picard screwed the proverbial pooch.

Addressing your third and fifth points, if he thought the ship was going to explode, wouldn't the have noticed a lack of an explosion on the shuttle's sensors? At that point, at least his shuttle SHOULD have gone back to make sure of the ship.

Wolf 359 was an unusual case as far as battlefields go. First, it was a hostile and active battlezone, with combat actually taking place around these ships that were being disabled. Second, it was well within Federation space, so it was more realistic for Starfleet to be able recover any still salvageable ships.

Now, on to wiping out his crew. I believe he said that they crammed into shuttlecraft to limp home. Now, we KNOW at least some shuttles are warp capable, and I'm assuming that those restricted to impulse were either left behind or tractored along (since we don't know how many survivors there were from Stargazer). With a long enough countdown they could have escaped.

And last, as we have all seen and discussed, even if the auto destruct sequence itself was disabled or couldn't be initiated for whatever reason, there are plenty of ways to destroy a starship (hell, the challange is usually to keep one FROM blowing up)

Those are some valid points. I think the only thing I can come up with in rebuttal is Picard was found not guilty in his court martial and any reference to his personal relationship to admirals is just speculation. True, shuttles now are warp capable, but we do not know if they were during that period of time. And would Picard going back be in the best interest of the people stuffed on that shuttle? Would you logically start splitting up survivors? There are a lot of unknowns regarding this incident.

[Aaron]

Those are some valid points. I think the only thing I can come up with in rebuttal is Picard was found not guilty in his court martial and any reference to his personal relationship to admirals is just speculation. True, shuttles now are warp capable, but we do not know if they were during that period of time. And would Picard going back be in the best interest of the people stuffed on that shuttle? Would you logically start splitting up survivors? There are a lot of unknowns regarding this incident.

Shuttles have been warp capable since TOS, how do you think that Kirk was able to follow Spock while he returned Pike to Talos?

[Tsukiyumi]

Regarding destroying the Stargazer, the only scenario I can come up with is: if the warp core were already jettisoned, would blowing the impulse reactors destroy the ship?

Otherwise, it should be as simple as previously mentioned.

[Aaron]

Regarding destroying the Stargazer, the only scenario I can come up with is: if the warp core were already jettisoned, would blowing the impulse reactors destroy the ship?

Otherwise, it should be as simple as previously mentioned.

Why wouldn't they? A Constitution fusion reactor was estimated to yield 97 megatons, that should scatter Stagazer into iddy bitty pieces considering it's internal.

[katefan]

Those are some valid points. I think the only thing I can come up with in rebuttal is Picard was found not guilty in his court martial and any reference to his personal relationship to admirals is just speculation. True, shuttles now are warp capable, but we do not know if they were during that period of time. And would Picard going back be in the best interest of the people stuffed on that shuttle? Would you logically start splitting up survivors? There are a lot of unknowns regarding this incident.

Shuttles have been warp capable since TOS, how do you think that Kirk was able to follow Spock while he returned Pike to Talos?

Good point.

[Tsukiyumi]

Regarding destroying the Stargazer, the only scenario I can come up with is: if the warp core were already jettisoned, would blowing the impulse reactors destroy the ship?

Otherwise, it should be as simple as previously mentioned.

Why wouldn't they? A Constitution fusion reactor was estimated to yield 97 megatons, that should scatter Stagazer into iddy bitty pieces considering it's internal.

Well, there you go. Even without the warp core, they should've been able to rig the impulse reactors to overload. There was no good reason not to blow up the damn ship.

[Sionnach Glic]

First of all, I do not know if that was actually Ferengi space where Picard and company were at. In unexplored territory it could have been two ships far afield running into one another. If it was Ferengi space then I stand corrected, but I was under the impression no one was quite sure Ferengi space even was for a while.

You're correct that they didn't know whether or not it was Ferengi space. However, given that they had just been attacked it would be wiser to assume that it was.

Second, leaving a ship behind in any condition can be potentially dangerous for the Federation. It's computer core can tell a lot about Starfleet, for example. A thorough examination of Sickbay and life support can tell a species a lot about the biology of the crew. Examination of the weapons and technology, even out of date, can still provide clues regarding the sophistication of the Federation in general.

Exactly. Leaving a ship to fall into enemy hands intact is sheer insanity. Particularly if the race in question has just committed what amounts to an act of war.

Third, did it ever occur to anyone Picard was considering coming back to the Stargazer once it was abandoned? The ship apparently was on it's way to blowing up, I assume that he was told as much, or looked at the evidence/data and judged the ship too dangerous to stay on. So he ordered abandon ship. If the ship did not blow then likely he would have come back had he and the crew had not been rescued (I am still uncertain regarding the details) as a disabled starship makes a far better life boat.

IIRC, the ship was in alright condition, but disabled. A ship was going to come back later to pick the Stargazer up.
However, assuming you could just leave the ship all on its own, completely unprotected or attended, in the middle of what you should assume is enemy territory and thinking everything's going to be fine isn't exactly wise. Given that nothing was known about the Ferengi at the time, Picard should have erred on the side of caution and assumed that there were more ships out there and that they could turn up at any moment. Therefore he should have destroyed the Stargazer when it became clear that rescue wasn't coming immediately.

Fourth, if abandoning an intact ship is such a crime, then every captain at Wolf 359 should be court marsheled, correct? I saw a lot of intact ships floating about. I guess every single captain at that battle should have strode down to engineering and shot the warp core or something. How dare they leave their ships behind to make a dramatic scene for Best of Both World II!

There's a difference between abandoning heavily damaged ships in the middle of an on-going battle in the middle of your territory, and abandoning a ship that has suffered little damage in the middle of enemy territory.

Fifth, what if Picard ordered the ship to self destruct and it malfunctioned?

Then he should have found an alternate method of destroying the ship. There are plenty of possibilities. Shooting the warp core with a phaser. Setting a torp to go off in a few minutes. Shutting down containment around the reactor. Shooting vulnerable areas of the ship with shuttle phasers. Etc, etc, etc.

Sixth, what if Picard did not want to self destruct the ship because he did not want the explosion to wipe out his crew, floating helplessly in nearby space in life pods?

The escape pods appeared to have engines, as they were able to leave the area.

Also, the crew is expendable in this situation. Picard's highest priority should have been making sure the Stargazer never fell into enemy hands.

Finally, what if Picard could not destroy his ship? We saw in both TOS and TNG episodes that it takes at least two people to set a ship to self destruct. If the XO is dead perhaps Picard could not initiate a self destruct.

The system of self-destruct seems to depend on the ship in question. The Intrepid class, for example, requires only the input of the captain to detonate, while the Galaxy-class requires three people.
However, even if the XO was required and was killed we've seen that that authority can be transferred to the next in line officer.

And if the warp core was diabled phasering it would not have detonated it.

There are other methods. Setting all the torps on timers to go off later, shutting down containment on the anti-matter, using the impulse engines to fly the ship into a star or planet, etc.

[Mikey]

I think the points about being in Ferengi space a/o near hostile Ferengi is moot - what difference does it make if you leave the ship to be nabbed by Ferengi specifically, or by some other unknown species? Either way, he should have deep-sixed the thing.

[Mark]

Regarding destroying the Stargazer, the only scenario I can come up with is: if the warp core were already jettisoned, would blowing the impulse reactors destroy the ship?

Otherwise, it should be as simple as previously mentioned.

Why wouldn't they? A Constitution fusion reactor was estimated to yield 97 megatons, that should scatter Stagazer into iddy bitty pieces considering it's internal.

Well, there you go. Even without the warp core, they should've been able to rig the impulse reactors to overload. There was no good reason not to blow up the damn ship.

And even assuming that the impulse reactor to was unable to overload for whatever reason. I remember reading that Starships have explosive charges placed in various points around the hull, for use as a self destruct option while inside of a solar system (ie ST:III). Even if the self destruct sequence was disabled, how hard can it be to rig an independant timer, or run a bypass?

[Captain Seafort]

IIRC, the ship was in alright condition, but disabled.

Unless the Ferengi did some serious repair work (which, given Bok's plan, can't be discounted) the damage to the Stargazer was superficial - in "The Battle" she still had weapons, shields and warp drive.

[Aaron]

There's a difference between abandoning heavily damaged ships in the middle of an on-going battle in the middle of your territory, and abandoning a ship that has suffered little damage in the middle of enemy territory.

To blatently de-rail the thread: WTF happened to the crew on those ships. The E-D arrived a few hours or so after the battle, right? Yet reported no life signs and she never encountered any pods on the way in or out.

BTW: I'm sure Seafort could furnish us with some examples of ships being scuttled in combat by their fellow ships. I know there's at least one in WWII.

And even assuming that the impulse reactor to was unable to overload for whatever reason. I remember reading that Starships have explosive charges placed in various points around the hull, for use as a self destruct option while inside of a solar system (ie ST:III). Even if the self destruct sequence was disabled, how hard can it be to rig an independant timer, or run a bypass?

Yes that comes from Mr Scotts Guide To The Enterprise which neatly explains the expoldo saucer. Detonating the charges shouldn't be anymore difficult than a large modern mass detonation, presumably the charges are daisy chained together and simply need a signal or voltage to detonate. Break a battery out of storage, hook it to a communicator, bug out and detonate from a shuttle.

[Sionnach Glic]

Unless the Ferengi did some serious repair work (which, given Bok's plan, can't be discounted) the damage to the Stargazer was superficial - in "The Battle" she still had weapons, shields and warp drive.

I assume it was disabled, at least. Otherwise there'd be no reason for Picard to abandon it in favour of shuttles.

To blatently de-rail the thread: WTF happened to the crew on those ships. The E-D arrived a few hours or so after the battle, right? Yet reported no life signs and she never encountered any pods on the way in or out.

I think we had a discussion on that before. It was decided that another ship must have come along later and picked the crews up. Possibly a medical ship standing by at the edge of the battle.

Yes that comes from Mr Scotts Guide To The Enterprise which neatly explains the expoldo saucer. Detonating the charges shouldn't be anymore difficult than a large modern mass detonation, presumably the charges are daisy chained together and simply need a signal or voltage to detonate. Break a battery out of storage, hook it to a communicator, bug out and detonate from a shuttle

Hell, if worst came to worst and that failed as well, somehow, then tell the crew to break out the sledgehammers and go on a smashing spree of every computer and piece of equipment on the ship. Wipe the ship's computer, wreck its armaments and engines, vent the air out into space as you're leaving, blast holes in the exterior with the shuttles' phasers and do anything else you can do to ensure that all the enemy gets is a broken hulk filled with scrap.

[Aaron]

Hell, if worst came to worst and that failed as well, somehow, then tell the crew to break out the sledgehammers and go on a smashing spree of every computer and piece of equipment on the ship. Wipe the ship's computer, wreck its armaments and engines, vent the air out into space as you're leaving, blast holes in the exterior with the shuttles' phasers and do anything else you can do to ensure that all the enemy gets is a broken hulk filled with scrap.

Yeah, physical destruction. There's a sledgehammer and WP grenade in every military vehicle for exactly that reason. SOP for practically every military branch and nation that has a brain.