USS Stargazer

[Sionnach Glic]

Really? Hm, maybe he got it from somewhere else in that case.

[Captain Seafort]

hmm...I'm not sure it's as easy as you make it out to be but nothing is impossible. But I've yet to hear an explination as to why he didn't when you make it sound so easy that he could've.

Because he's incompetent - this is the same joker who, even years later, didn't even think to phaser the warp core when he wanted to destroy the ship.

The bottom line is that it's irrelevant whether Picard disobeyed Starfleet standing orders in failing to destroy the Stargazer - the point is that he left an extremely powerful warship (i.e. powerful enough to pose a threat to a GCS) adrift, with weapons, shields and warp drive still operational, intact on a battlefield. Either he's incompetent and insubordinate, or both he and Starfleet as a whole are incompetent.

[Sionnach Glic]

the point is that he left an extremely powerful warship (i.e. powerful enough to pose a threat to a GCS) adrift, with weapons, shields and warp drive still operational, intact on a battlefield.

A battlefield under the control of a seemingly hostile and unknown alien power, at that.

[Aaron]

What 'friends' did he have at that time?

There's a good number of admirals that Picard was at least on friendly terms with. Lets see:


Vice Admiral Aaron

Vice Admiral Dougherty

Admiral Hanson

Rear Admiral Pressman

Hanson is the best evidence there is for nepotism. He and Picard are on a first name basis and obviously friends in private. And he is referred to as Admiral, full stop. Meaning he is a full admiral, again meaning he has been an admiral for a long time.

[Sonic Glitch]

or both he and Starfleet as a whole are incompetent.

Well the answer to that seems to have been done to death on this bored, and I think(hope) everyones agreed to disagree and WON'T BRING IT UP AGAIN!


ok, i'm done.

[Captain Seafort]

And he is referred to as Admiral, full stop. Meaning he is a full admiral, again meaning he has been an admiral for a long time.

To nitpick, aren't all flag officers aside from Commodores referred to as "Admiral", regardless of their specific rank? There's also this image from MA which seems to indicate that Hanson is a Vice-Admiral.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

(i.e. powerful enough to pose a threat to a GCS)

As you guys like to point out, that's not saying much.

[Reliant121]

yet, she was the federation flagship design at the time.

[Aaron]

To nitpick, aren't all flag officers aside from Commodores referred to as "Admiral", regardless of their specific rank? There's also this image from MA which seems to indicate that Hanson is a Vice-Admiral.

Typically yes, Trek seems to go out of it's way to specify their rank at some point though. So I took it mean a full Admiral.

At any rate, he is only one rank below full Admiral and would weild a considerable amount of influence (especially as Trek seems to have them overseeing everything and overlapping responsibility).

[Aaron]

(i.e. powerful enough to pose a threat to a GCS)

As you guys like to point out, that's not saying much.

When your quite through dodging points:

What 'friends' did he have at that time?

There's a good number of admirals that Picard was at least on friendly terms with. Lets see:


Vice Admiral Aaron

Vice Admiral Dougherty

Admiral Hanson

Rear Admiral Pressman

Hanson is the best evidence there is for nepotism. He and Picard are on a first name basis and obviously friends in private. And he is referred to as Admiral, full stop. Meaning he is a full admiral, again meaning he has been an admiral for a long time.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

(i.e. powerful enough to pose a threat to a GCS)

As you guys like to point out, that's not saying much.

When your quite through dodging points:

What 'friends' did he have at that time?

There's a good number of admirals that Picard was at least on friendly terms with. Lets see:


Vice Admiral Aaron

Vice Admiral Dougherty

Admiral Hanson

Rear Admiral Pressman

Hanson is the best evidence there is for nepotism. He and Picard are on a first name basis and obviously friends in private. And he is referred to as Admiral, full stop. Meaning he is a full admiral, again meaning he has been an admiral for a long time.

It looks like Dougherty and Hanson have the same rank insignia yet you list them as having different ranks...visuals trump dialog. People make mistakes, visuals do not

And do you have any evidence to suggest that he knew them at this time and that they had that rank at that time?

[Aaron]

It looks like Dougherty and Hanson have the same rank insignia yet you list them as having different ranks...visuals trump dialog. People make mistakes, visuals do not

And do you have any evidence to suggest that he knew them at this time and that they had that rank at that time?

Thanks that was covered three posts ago. I know you have no clue how the military works but give me a break. Hanson and Doughtery are Vice Admirals, the second highest rank in the fleet and obviously in their sixties. You can easily spend 15 years in the Admiral grades.

And once again: Watch. The. Show. Picard and Hanson are obviously friends and refer to each other by their first names in private. That implies a long association.

[Sionnach Glic]

As you guys like to point out, that's not saying much.

Actualy, when you consider that the Galaxy class was the most powerful ship in Starfleet at the time, that is saying a lot. Letting Stargazer fall into enemy hands could have been detrimental to the Federation.

[katefan]

I replied last night, but when I posted I was booted from DITL's forum, which was a pisser since I went through all that trouble. So this is going by memory. I am addressing certain points raised, both pro and con.

First of all, I do not know if that was actually Ferengi space where Picard and company were at. In unexplored territory it could have been two ships far afield running into one another. If it was Ferengi space then I stand corrected, but I was under the impression no one was quite sure Ferengi space even was for a while.

Second, leaving a ship behind in any condition can be potentially dangerous for the Federation. It's computer core can tell a lot about Starfleet, for example. A thorough examination of Sickbay and life support can tell a species a lot about the biology of the crew. Examination of the weapons and technology, even out of date, can still provide clues regarding the sophistication of the Federation in general.

Third, did it ever occur to anyone Picard was considering coming back to the Stargazer once it was abandoned? The ship apparently was on it's way to blowing up, I assume that he was told as much, or looked at the evidence/data and judged the ship too dangerous to stay on. So he ordered abandon ship. If the ship did not blow then likely he would have come back had he and the crew had not been rescued (I am still uncertain regarding the details) as a disabled starship makes a far better life boat.

Fourth, if abandoning an intact ship is such a crime, then every captain at Wolf 359 should be court marsheled, correct? I saw a lot of intact ships floating about. I guess every single captain at that battle should have strode down to engineering and shot the warp core or something. How dare they leave their ships behind to make a dramatic scene for Best of Both World II!

Fifth, what if Picard ordered the ship to self destruct and it malfunctioned?

Sixth, what if Picard did not want to self destruct the ship because he did not want the explosion to wipe out his crew, floating helplessly in nearby space in life pods?

Finally, what if Picard could not destroy his ship? We saw in both TOS and TNG episodes that it takes at least two people to set a ship to self destruct. If the XO is dead perhaps Picard could not initiate a self destruct. And if the warp core was diabled phasering it would not have detonated it.

[Mikey]

Except that he had no idea if there were more unknown enemy's in the area.

Which makes his duty to destroy the ship even more imperative. Since that could have been done AND the crew evac'd, I have no idea where this supposed "choice" between the ship and the crew comes from.