Yesterday's Enterprise

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 6:30 pm

Martok, enemies yes of course, but he has the support of the entire fleet. A few enemies will sit and wait till a less powerful leader comes forward.

The culture change comes from martok himself, he speaks about needing growth for the empire that doesn't start a war. I think he said growth of the soul or to that effect.

What started the war was when the E-C showed up and then disappeared, the klingons thought of it as an insult and cowardice.

You teach history and I study it, the two sides of the coin meet. Survival yes but that can make the greatest of allies as well. Read the treaty of kadesh.

We agree that the Cardassians wouldn't like it, but they need it. And they really just don't have any other good choices. They are hurt and in need of help, only the fed is willing to do it for them. What people need is often different then what they want.

If they change or not they are still unsure as what to do about the position.

8472 had thought of the federation as a threat and was going to infiltrate Starfleet but Janeway made peace on the idea that we could kill their ships with ease and the had the power to destroy our worlds and neither side would gain anything. Peace came by reasoning (a first in star trek I think).

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:31 pm

Martok, enemies yes of course, but he has the support of the entire fleet. A few enemies will sit and wait till a less powerful leader comes forward.

Indeed, that was my point. He wont be leader forever.

The culture change comes from martok himself, he speaks about needing growth for the empire that doesn't start a war. I think he said growth of the soul or to that effect.

And you really think average Joe klingon will go along with that?
Put it this way, do you think it would be possible for the next US president to convert the whole country to atheism and get them to accept Iran as their new partners? That is effectively what you're asking to happen.

What started the war was when the E-C showed up and then disappeared, the klingons thought of it as an insult and cowardice.

And they started a war over this. Thats my point, these guys go to war over the slightest thing. Hardly the most dependable race.

Survival yes but that can make the greatest of allies as well. Read the treaty of kadesh.

Oh, indeed. I'm not denying that some alliances do stand the test of time excelently. Although there are plenty that dont. Particularly when the cultures are so different. Look at the US and the USSR. Allies in WW2 by nesescity, but after the war they went straight for each others throats.

I take it you have some interest in Egyptian history?

We agree that the Cardassians wouldn't like it, but they need it. And they really just don't have any other good choices. They are hurt and in need of help, only the fed is willing to do it for them. What people need is often different then what they want.

Quite true. But as you have an interest in history you should know that forced unions rarely end well down the line. The Cardasians may not have an option now, but I can see them trying to get independance again in the future.

If they change or not they are still unsure as what to do about the position.

What's this in reply to?

8472 had thought of the federation as a threat and was going to infiltrate Starfleet but Janeway made peace on the idea that we could kill their ships with ease and the had the power to destroy our worlds and neither side would gain anything. Peace came by reasoning (a first in star trek I think).

1) Does this even matter? I never even brought these guys up.

2) 8472 had no interest in our galaxy until the borg attacked them and forced 8472 to retaliate, which was the only way the war would end. Voyager turns up and in another act of wisdom from Genius Janeway she decides to help the borg in their war.
This alerted 8472 to the Federation, who viewed this attack as an act of war. This is the only reason they were willing to attack, they thought we had struck first. (Well done Lameway!)

Post by **Teaos** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:02 am

Put it this way, do you think it would be possible for the next US president to convert the whole country to atheism and get them to accept Iran as their new partners? That is effectively what you're asking to happen.

Why not. This administration made them think every middle eastern person wants them dead. That their children need to be gone over with metal detectors at schools. They have made them fear their own shadows. Social control is rather easy.

8472 had no interest in our galaxy until the borg attacked them and forced 8472 to retaliate, which was the only way the war would end. Voyager turns up and in another act of wisdom from Genius Janeway she decides to help the borg in their war.
This alerted 8472 to the Federation, who viewed this attack as an act of war. This is the only reason they were willing to attack, they thought we had struck first. (Well done Lameway!)

8472 wanted to pure our Galaxy of all life. They are a far bigger threat than the Borg were. She choose the lesser of 2 evils.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:34 am

Why not. This administration made them think every middle eastern person wants them dead. That their children need to be gone over with metal detectors at schools. They have made them fear their own shadows. Social control is rather easy.

Okay, maybe that was a poor analogy. But the point still stands that you cannot get a culture to go in completely the oposite direction without causing chaos.

8472 wanted to pure our Galaxy of all life. They are a far bigger threat than the Borg were. She choose the lesser of 2 evils.

Where did we hear this?

Post by **Teaos** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:35 am

I think It was in Scorpion were they came across a lone 8472 in a Borg cube. In talked telepathically saying it was going to purge our Galaxy or somethign like that.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:26 pm

I thought they were going to purge the borg, and later the Federation, but not the galaxy. Remember, the point stands that the borg fired the first shot and 8472 only turned on our galaxy after this.

Perhaps someone who saw this episode more recently could clear this up?

Post by **Teaos** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:35 pm

I'm not saying the Borg didnt start it. its just if you get a choice between fighting the Borg or 8472 I'd take the former.

Sionnach Glic · Post by **Sionnach Glic** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 12:38 pm

*shrug*
Personally, I'd take 8472. If either of them attacks in a competant manner you're screwed. At least one only kills you, the other turns you into a zombie.

Deepcrush · Post by **Deepcrush** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:05 am

Either way it doesn't matter. Janeway made a NAT with 8472. The borg are still a threat and we have gotten off topic.

Post by **Teaos** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:52 am

Off topic? 90% of posts in the forum are off topic.

Granitehewer · Post by **Granitehewer** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:06 pm

Wasn't it later stipulated, that the 'purge comment' didn't reflect all of species 8472, its that episode where species 8472 establish a mimicry of starfleet headquarters, 'boothby' etc was a moderate

Post by **Teaos** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:09 pm

Boothby was more Indifferent than anything. People like that just tend to sit back and let the more extreamists (Purgers) do their thing.

Granitehewer · Post by **Granitehewer** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:11 pm

But he clearly was in authority there, and did exercise influence.....

Post by **Captain Seafort** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:17 pm

It's possible that the extremist faction of 8472 were discredited by the hammering the invasion force got from Voyager, as they were on the brink of victory over the Borg. This allowed the more moderate/cautious faction (including the individual that took the form of Boothby) to follow their own strategy of analysising their new enemy in more detail, rather than simply going in weapons blazing. This led to the Stafleet Academy infiltration mission, and ultimately the non-agression pact agreed between "Boothby" and Janeway.

Post by **Teaos** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:24 pm

OK I got this off Wiki so I'm not sure if it's 100% right.

8472 are the only known species in fluidic space.

Now it could be they just like the original race in our galaxy were the only ones to evolve their but they could also be very xenophobic and killed the other races off.

If they were the only race of creatures their maybe they didnt like the idea of other races existing also decided to kill them off.

I tend to lean towards them being xenophobic as a whole as a race with no enemies would have no reason to have weapons. And 8472 have some kick ass weapons.