You're a Captain,you get to pick your starship. Which class?

[Aaron]

He's was an admiral and in charge of earth defenses, but he wasn't a god. He knew what he was doing, he knew the likelyhood that his long standing friend sisko would appose it, and that the most powerful weapon in sisko's arsenal of tricks is worf aboard the defiant. he conned the council and the admiralty into upgrading the excelsior class to the lakota because there were hundreds of excelsiors and the admiralty could be fooled into believing the lakota was a testbed upgrade for the rest of the excelsior fleet to bring starfleet's collective firepower up a notch in preperation for war with the dominion.

Think about what you are proposing. He would have had to have this in the works for years, possibly a decade given how long it would take to design and actually complete the upgrade on Lakota in other words before the Dominion was even discovered.

As for the soveriegn upgrade, it was originally designed with the borg in mind.

And we know this how?

the upgrades that later came up work a hindsite given to the dominion threat and most likely were not a planned overhaul. I mean come on, they added 5 standard type torpedoe launchers. if they were seriously planning for a topredoe tube upgrade in the future it would been with pulse fire or type 3 or type 4 burst fire in mind. you do not plan to upgrade your latest weapon of war in the future by strapping on something as ancient as a torpedoe system some 100s of years old. thats not just stupid its insane.

Or that's all they could work in given the available space. Volume of fire could have been a more important consideration especially given that a standar PT is just fine for the majority of threats encountered.

[ultron2099]

He's was an admiral and in charge of earth defenses, but he wasn't a god. He knew what he was doing, he knew the likelyhood that his long standing friend sisko would appose it, and that the most powerful weapon in sisko's arsenal of tricks is worf aboard the defiant. he conned the council and the admiralty into upgrading the excelsior class to the lakota because there were hundreds of excelsiors and the admiralty could be fooled into believing the lakota was a testbed upgrade for the rest of the excelsior fleet to bring starfleet's collective firepower up a notch in preperation for war with the dominion.

Think about what you are proposing. He would have had to have this in the works for years, possibly a decade given how long it would take to design and actually complete the upgrade on Lakota in other words before the Dominion was even discovered.

As for the soveriegn upgrade, it was originally designed with the borg in mind.

And we know this how?

the upgrades that later came up work a hindsite given to the dominion threat and most likely were not a planned overhaul. I mean come on, they added 5 standard type torpedoe launchers. if they were seriously planning for a topredoe tube upgrade in the future it would been with pulse fire or type 3 or type 4 burst fire in mind. you do not plan to upgrade your latest weapon of war in the future by strapping on something as ancient as a torpedoe system some 100s of years old. thats not just stupid its insane.

Or that's all they could work in given the available space. Volume of fire could have been a more important consideration especially given that a standar PT is just fine for the majority of threats encountered.

Lakota upgrade, would not so take years. it was already established that the losses suffered at Wolf 359 would be replaced within one year. Given the importance of the dominion threat and the serious lack of firepower inherit within the bulk of the fleet which is represented by the venerable Excelscior class, it is WELL within reason to assume he could have had that ship fully upgraded and ready to go within six months top.

And we know that the soveriegn was designed with the borg in mind because the earliest project planners envisioned upgrading the ambassador class with the latest weapons systems. when picard proved the galaxy class was no match for the borg, they scrapped their original plans and designed the soveriegn class. read the daystrom's files on it.

and lastly, if volume of fire was so darned important for the upgrade on the soveriegn, one single type 3 burst fire torpedoe launcher has more firepower in it then 5 standard class torpedoe launchers.



this conversation is pointless. anyone can INVENT reasons why something can't be done. I did some reasearch, i gave precedent, i've showed examples, i've pointed out were many a similar thing has been done. But if your determined to swat every example and every reason down just because you don't like the idea of upgrading the ambassador class with a couple of torpedoe systems, then fine. you can't argue with people who choose to be deaf and blind.

[Mikey]

Does Seaforts agreeing with Deapcrush create a hole in the fabricate of the universe swallowing their argument leaving me the defacto winner?

Actually, it creates a hole which swallows us all. Sorry.

[ultron2099]

this conversation is pointless. anyone can INVENT reasons why something can't be done. I did some reasearch, i gave precedent, i've showed examples, i've pointed out were many a similar thing has been done. But if your determined to swat every example and every reason down just because you don't like the idea of upgrading the ambassador class with a couple of torpedoe systems, then fine. you can't argue with people who choose to be deaf and blind.

Did I mention the tired part? if not, i'm really tired. so if this sounds really rude or insulting or somehting .... sorry.

[Aaron]

Lakota upgrade, would not so take years. it was already established that the losses suffered at Wolf 359 would be replaced within one year. Given the importance of the dominion threat and the serious lack of firepower inherit within the bulk of the fleet which is represented by the venerable Excelscior class, it is WELL within reason to assume he could have had that ship fully upgraded and ready to go within six months top.

New builds are historically faster than refits for obvious reasons. The refit of the Big E in TOS took 18 months FFS and was likely years in the planning stages.

And we know that the soveriegn was designed with the borg in mind because the earliest project planners envisioned upgrading the ambassador class with the latest weapons systems. when picard proved the galaxy class was no match for the borg, they scrapped their original plans and designed the soveriegn class. read the daystrom's files on it.

That's Grahams speculation, white text is non-canon material. I could claim is was designed to combat the Gorn and be just as correct.

and lastly, if volume of fire was so darned important for the upgrade on the soveriegn, one single type 3 burst fire torpedoe launcher has more firepower in it then 5 standard class torpedoe launchers.

And for all we know it takes up five times the room.

this conversation is pointless. anyone can INVENT reasons why something can't be done. I did some reasearch, i gave precedent, i've showed examples, i've pointed out were many a similar thing has been done. But if your determined to swat every example and every reason down just because you don't like the idea of upgrading the ambassador class with a couple of torpedoe systems, then fine. you can't argue with people who choose to be deaf and blind.

Indeed it is pointless, that's why this is a hobby.

[Aaron]

Did I mention the tired part? if not, i'm really tired. so if this sounds really rude or insulting or somehting .... sorry.

No, I'm used to far worse than this. I take no offense, if anything it's refreshing. I tire of people pussy footing around.

[Tsukiyumi]

No, I'm used to far worse than this. I take no offense, if anything it's refreshing. I tire of people pussy footing around.

That aimed anywhere in particular? If people don't show some restraint, every thread will turn into a wall of insults, going 'round in circles. Which is utterly pointless.

[Aaron]

That aimed anywhere in particular? If people don't show some restraint, every thread will turn into a wall of insults, going 'round in circles. Which is utterly pointless.

Not really, just a general comment. Frankly I'd rather be insulted flat out than get the snide backhanded comments, you know the ones that appear polite but on closer inspection are insulting. This isn't the only board I'm on as well, so keep that in mind.

[Deepcrush]

this conversation is pointless. anyone can INVENT reasons why something can't be done. I did some reasearch, i gave precedent, i've showed examples, i've pointed out were many a similar thing has been done. But if your determined to swat every example and every reason down just because you don't like the idea of upgrading the ambassador class with a couple of torpedoe systems, then fine. you can't argue with people who choose to be deaf and blind.

Did I mention the tired part? if not, i'm really tired. so if this sounds really rude or insulting or somehting .... sorry.

Wow, thats the first time I've seen this guy mad. LMAO. Don't worry about it, everyone here has blown up at least once. I do it about once a month or so. And you haven't seen my temper yet!

As to what we do or do not know.

Could the Lakota be upgraded in six months? Yes, it is very possible. The primary hull was hardly changed. TLs were only upgraded. Phasers added but that seems simple enough in trek as Phasers go on and off line every few minutes. Sheilds would have been the hardest thing to upgrade most likely. Many of the changes that Ultron is talking about are possible but make little sense and could and most likely would cause more harm the good for his ship.

Armor is heavy and wears on the hull. Extra kits and pods add even more stress to the hull. Do we truly know what effect switching phaser banks for phaser strips has? What kind of power would be needed for that kind of an upgrade as well. Like I said, I think that where all of the upgrades you talked about are possible, they aren't really useful.

Ask anyone here, I am one of the biggest Nobs on here for giving every ship QTLs and Ablative Armor. Not only should the upgrade be possible but practical. Taking 2 PTLs and then trying to turn it into 6 isn't practical. Taking the same 2 TLs and upgrading to the best ones available and can fit in the neck hull of a Ambassador/GCS. Thats both possible and practical, and that's the idea behind any upgrade.

[ultron2099]

Armor is heavy and wears on the hull. Extra kits and pods add even more stress to the hull. Do we truly know what effect switching phaser banks for phaser strips has? What kind of power would be needed for that kind of an upgrade as well. Like I said, I think that where all of the upgrades you talked about are possible, they aren't really useful.

um .... the ambassador class comes with type ix phaser strips, not banks. i'm not even proposing connecting the phaser strips, just upgrading them from type 9 to the enhanced type x the galaxy class carries.

And if anyone wants to know were the extra room comes from, the ambassador has plenty of ... ambassadorial sweets it could dispose of

At the very minimum, the two type 1 burst fire torpedoe tubes need to be upgraded to type 4 and the photon torpedoes have to be replaced with quantum torpedoes. And damnit, the ambassador needs a rear firing torpedoe tube system of some kinda. there has got to be a way of installing atleast a pulse fire launcher covering her flank. I can dump the third nacelle, but if i do that i'm going to have to seriously upgrade from high density armor to ablative and increase shield strength in addition for the lack of torpedoe firepower that's been robbed me

[Reliant121]

Armor is heavy and wears on the hull. Extra kits and pods add even more stress to the hull. Do we truly know what effect switching phaser banks for phaser strips has? What kind of power would be needed for that kind of an upgrade as well. Like I said, I think that where all of the upgrades you talked about are possible, they aren't really useful.

um .... the ambassador class comes with type ix phaser strips, not banks. i'm not even proposing connecting the phaser strips, just upgrading them from type 9 to the enhanced type x the galaxy class carries.

And if anyone wants to know were the extra room comes from, the ambassador has plenty of ... ambassadorial sweets it could dispose of

At the very minimum, the two type 1 burst fire torpedoe tubes need to be upgraded to type 4 and the photon torpedoes have to be replaced with quantum torpedoes. And damnit, the ambassador needs a rear firing torpedoe tube system of some kinda. there has got to be a way of installing atleast a pulse fire launcher covering her flank. I can dump the third nacelle, but if i do that i'm going to have to seriously upgrade from high density armor to ablative and increase shield strength in addition for the lack of torpedoe firepower that's been robbed me

Your trying to pack to much into one hull. The Lakota didn't have torpedoes hanging off its hull. As Deep keeps saying, and you keep ignoring, Upgrade what you have! Swap in the PT launchers for QT launchers, make them rapid fire and replace the phaser arrays. Gut the shields, make them at least comparable to a Nebula, more like a GCS. And plate it with armour.

What your proposing is to bolt far to much weaponry on the hull. Having torpedoes hanging off the saucer or balanced procariously on top of the engineering section is NOT a good idea. SF managed to upgrade the Lakota to a much higher standard without torpedoes slung underneath the hull. They can do the same for the Ambassadors.

[Tsukiyumi]

According to the DITL stats, the Excelsior originally had four 2nd class photon launchers; the Lakota had four pulse-fire QT launchers. The pulse-fire launcher can't be much larger than a 2nd class tube, then, and the Type-1 burst fire tube must be even larger. Ergo, in place of two Type-1 burst fire launchers, you should be able to fit more than two pulse-fire QT launchers.

Of course, we have no clue on the sizes of any of these launchers, so it's all up in the air.

[Captain Seafort]

He's was an admiral and in charge of earth defenses, but he wasn't a god. He knew what he was doing, he knew the likelyhood that his long standing friend sisko would appose it, and that the most powerful weapon in sisko's arsenal of tricks is worf aboard the defiant. he conned the council and the admiralty into upgrading the excelsior class to the lakota because there were hundreds of excelsiors and the admiralty could be fooled into believing the lakota was a testbed upgrade for the rest of the excelsior fleet to bring starfleet's collective firepower up a notch in preperation for war with the dominion.

Evidence of this? Leyton wanted Sisko on his side for the coup, or failing that kept out of the way. If he wanted a ship to fight the Defiant why not chose something like a Nebula - they're common enough that a fleetwide upgrade programme would be plausible, and it would be a far more capable anti-Defiant platform.

Alternatively, the Lakota was exactly what it was shown to be in the episode - an Excelsior that was used to try and stop the Defiant because it was the only ship available. The fact that it had been recently refitted was a bit of luck for Leyton, and the whole reason it was in Earth orbit in the first place.

As for the soveriegn upgrade, it was originally designed with the borg in mind. the upgrades that later came up work a hindsite given to the dominion threat and most likely were not a planned overhaul. I mean come on, they added 5 standard type torpedoe launchers. if they were seriously planning for a topredoe tube upgrade in the future it would been with pulse fire or type 3 or type 4 burst fire in mind. you do not plan to upgrade your latest weapon of war in the future by strapping on something as ancient as a torpedoe system some 100s of years old. thats not just stupid its insane.

There wasn't enough space to cram more of the big ventral torpedo launchers aboard - the stick-on launchers added extra coverage without taking up much space. In any event, the various "types" of torpedo launcher are simply Graham's way of differentiating the weapons of various types of ship, for comparison purposes. They're not the be-all and end-all of launcher design. Just because the E-E's stick-on launchers and the E-nil/E-A's main launchers can only fire one torpedo at a time does not mean they're identical.

[Aaron]

According to the DITL stats, the Excelsior originally had four 2nd class photon launchers; the Lakota had four pulse-fire QT launchers. The pulse-fire launcher can't be much larger than a 2nd class tube, then, and the Type-1 burst fire tube must be even larger. Ergo, in place of two Type-1 burst fire launchers, you should be able to fit more than two pulse-fire QT launchers.

Of course, we have no clue on the sizes of any of these launchers, so it's all up in the air.

Hence the problem, the only launcher we've seen enough of to make a call on was the Big E and the E-A. Both of which took up a lot of room. Most of the bottom of the neck.

Even if they could shove TL's in willy nilly like ultron proposes, it doesn't fit with Starfleets design style. And there wouldn't be enough magazine space, so a massive intial barrage and then......what?

I'm not sure if I'm making any sense here, been up all night.

[Deepcrush]

I think Ultron is looking for the most bang out of his buck. The major problem is that he has over reached that buck. Only one ship has ever had that kind of an upgrade (the strap on 50 new toys kind) and that's the E-E. No other ship of any class has had that. If it were possible why didn't they upgrade the whole fleet in such standard. And, I agree with Seafort that the Nebula Class would have been a far better anti-Defiant warship. The Lakota was upgraded to the modern standard of a cruiser were a Nebula could easily have been set to a Heavy Cruiser.

The Lakota is rated at 1301.

An uprated Nebula w/ weapons pod is 1329. This is without a major refit, just phaser upgrades and better shields. Just think of you could get by upgrading with QTLs and Ablative armor. Stronger SIFs would also be a nice add in.