In defense of the A_hole directive

[Mikey]

Bingo. Further than that - in TNG:"The Drumhead," a diplomat - NOT an officer - was allowed, even encouraged, to run investigations, hearings, and convene a court-martial!

Huh? What are you talking about? The investigations were held by Norah Satie, a Starfleet Rear Admiral.

And for that matter, where was the court martial?

Satie was an admiral? Then there's a different problem, but I guess it's one of uniform conventions rather than legal issues.

As for the court-martial, I guess Picard stopped her before it got to that point. It was an episode I've taken pains to avoid seeing too many times.

[KuvahMagh]

They brought her out of retirement to handle the investigation IIRC so the uniform thing isn't so bad, granted she should have at least worn a basic uniform.

[Captain Seafort]

Worf, who seems to love violating the Directive kills a Klingon leadership contender, thus changing the course of history for not only the Klingons but virtually every Species in the Alpha/Beta neighborhood at least.

While I agree with the gist of what you're saying, there might be some leeway with this one. Worf and Duras' battle was fought on Duras' ship, which probably put it in Klingon jurisdiction. Since the Klingons shugged and considered the entire matter a legitimate redress of grievance on Worf's part, there might not have been much Picard could have done, especially since I don't recall him getting permission to send Riker's bording party over.

[Teaos]

What I find odd about the PD is that everyone seems to follow it some what.

Why didnt one of the big space sultures come to Earth in the 21st century and enslave us? Or at the very least sell us their tech for a lot of resourses.

[KuvahMagh]

While I agree with the gist of what you're saying, there might be some leeway with this one. Worf and Duras' battle was fought on Duras' ship, which probably put it in Klingon jurisdiction. Since the Klingons shugged and considered the entire matter a legitimate redress of grievance on Worf's part, there might not have been much Picard could have done, especially since I don't recall him getting permission to send Riker's bording party over.

So if the Culture we interfere with agrees with the interference its ok... Worf was a Starfleet Officer, he is accountable to Starfleet, not just the Klingon Empire.

What if, during the occupation a Bajoran Officer gave Starfleet Weapons and equipment to the Bajorans to use against the Cardassians, surely the Bajorans wouldn't complain, does that mean that person did not break the law?

If this precedent is allowed to pass then that means Starfleet would have no ability to regulate itself, instead all rules would have to be set by the persons Planet/Culture of origin. By this theory we would have ritual Andorian challenges every time someone looks at them wrong and Starfleet couldn't do a thing about it since thats their culture and I'm sure Andoria wouldn't freak out. This is political correctness to the absurd... maybe they should stop printing anything, outlaw all books and burn them all since something in one of them somewhere might just be offensive to someone else...

[mlsnoopy]

How exatcly was Worf breaking the PD. He is a klingon, fighting another klingon in a traditional klingon way.

[KuvahMagh]

How exatcly was Worf breaking the PD. He is a klingon, fighting another klingon in a traditional klingon way.

He is a Starfleet Officer who regardless of ANYTHING else became involved in Klingon internal affairs. Regardless of why he was fighting his fighting had an immediate impact on the future Government of the Empire. If he wanted to behave as a Klingon at the drop of a hat he should have never joined Starfleet.

What if in our current Society someone from a Country where beating a Thief is standard practice joins an Army after immigrating to a Country where that is not the practice. His Unit is subsequently deployed to his original Country for some reason or another, say in support of Humanitarian Aid, and he catches a Thief stealing supplies and he beat him, should that person then be allowed to slide since he is from that culture, doing what their culture dictates to another of his culture, or do we do the sanr thing and realize that those joining have to put aside some of their cultural imperatives for the service.

This is exactly Worf's case, while Klingon Culture accepts this Starfleet should in NO way accept it. Not only do they accept it but when he does it again no one seems to notice too much, in fact most are happy it happened.

[Mikey]

Worf became involved, he didn't interfere - in the sense that he did what he did according to the law and tradition of Klingon culture. If I went to another country and became involved in the political situation, I wouldn't consider it harmful interference with their society if I did everything according to their native laws and traditions.

As far as being a Starfleet officer at the time, IIRC (and it's been a while) he offered to resign his commission AND was reprimanded for his actions.

[KuvahMagh]

I wouldn't consider it harmful interference with their society if I did everything according to their native laws and traditions.

If you were wearing a Military Uniform of your own nation and as a part of a Crew whose mission was to in effect be a representative to their country?

As far as being a Starfleet officer at the time, IIRC (and it's been a while) he offered to resign his commission AND was reprimanded for his actions.

So in effect the immigrant soldier who beats someone should be given a talking to? Wow I would love to servie in that military, blow a few people up and you get rations instead of Mess Hall food.

Its the same thing, Worf did interfere, unless you are honestly suggesting that he did not for a single second consider the ramifications of his actions. Once again in the end I am forced to point out he is not just a Klingon but a Starfleet Officer who has to answer to their rules and laws, he choose that life, he did not have it forced upon himself. Instead of killing Duras he could have collected evidence, laid charges and tried to get to either extradited or punished within the Empire.

As to his resignation, he didn't resign before he killed him, but after. All that means is that it is easier to get forgiveness then it is to get permission. It could also be taken as a cowardly act to try and avoid the punishment he knows is due him.

The fact is there was no investigation afterward into what happened, Picard was once again allowed to dispense summary justice, no appeals afterwards, no professional examination, no thought on the consequences of their actions, just merrily along to the next adventure.

[Mikey]

I wouldn't consider it harmful interference with their society if I did everything according to their native laws and traditions.

If you were wearing a Military Uniform of your own nation and as a part of a Crew whose mission was to in effect be a representative to their country?

We're talking about two different things here. If I had done that in the situation you describe here, my offense would be to the uniform I was wearing, not the the country I was visiting. In other words, Worf didn't violate the PD - he violated his commission in Starfleet.

[KuvahMagh]

We're talking about two different things here. If I had done that in the situation you describe here, my offense would be to the uniform I was wearing, not the the country I was visiting. In other words, Worf didn't violate the PD - he violated his commission in Starfleet.

Alright, I'll give you that one instance, I still disagree with the idea behind the argument but I see what you are saying.

This does however point to major problem which does regard the PD, that of Starfleet's complete inability/unwillingness to punish any crimes, or to even investigate them properly.

[Mikey]

I'd go with that - I've been saying all along that part of the problem is enforcement, which includes accountability.

[KuvahMagh]

So have I pretty much, I agree with the PD, I agree with not helping other cultures, even if they will become extinct because you just can't predict the results of even a small amount of interference.

[Monroe]

You see that in America where many don't realize how much the French helped out in the revolution.

Hate to break this to ya but France only helped because they wanted new colonies. I'm much more grateful to the dutch who helped wanting only a new trading market.

Same with other forms of aid. They may appreciate it now. But people and nations are just as likely to revile you for what you could have given instead of what you did. Even in Trek cannon you have the humans pissing and moaning because the Vulcans only helped them get to warp 5 instead of just giving them their best engines. But you see it in the real world too from Africa to the guy on the street who has a full belly despite not working and yet is upset at the government.

Vulcans not only didn't help them get their best engines but purposely slowed human development down.

[Mikey]

Hate to break this to ya but France only helped because they wanted new colonies. I'm much more grateful to the dutch who helped wanting only a new trading market.

Erm... there were a couple of small, insignificant towns - like New York, for example - which were originally Dutch colonies.