Ship of the week: Negh’Var

[Captain Seafort]

Their objective there was to start a war - they might not be so willing if the ends were peaceful.

[Deepcrush]

And that was after 100 years of fighting back and forth. Just think of the things that could be worked out after their victory in the dominion war and now the KE joining the UFP. IT'S GOING TO BE A MEGA POWER! Ah, the dreams now flow through my mind!

[Teaos]

Ah but if the Klingons and Romulans join their arent many people for them to fight. Dominion and Borg are still to strong and everyone else is to weak.

[Deepcrush]

Their objective there was to start a war - they might not be so willing if the ends were peaceful.

Only part of them were looking to start a war.

The other part built a peace that lasted for more then 60 years. A peace that would lead the two powers to save the AQ from invasion and one day bring the two together into one nation.

Both are cases that prove the two can work together.

[Deepcrush]

Ah but if the Klingons and Romulans join their arent many people for them to fight. Dominion and Borg are still to strong and everyone else is to weak.

Of course but you forget something. The UFP is looking to expand. The AQ is a very big place. Their will always be small wars and policing actions to be fought. The Borg and the Dominion will remain a threat for a long time down the road. The sphere builders will start a pretty nasty war as well. Just think about how well things could work for the UFP if both the RSE and KE join.

Romulans working under cover to secure allies or spy on enemies. The SF to work out peaceful matters that need a little support one way or another. The Klingons if whoever is causing trouble won't fall in line. The 3 working together would bring the best of everything into a single fold. The people I think would be most annoyed would be the smaller races of the UFP who are now being passed over by the Klingons and Romulans.

[Teaos]

But it could end up like the SW senate. To many burrocrates and red tape. The bigger something is the more corrupt it would get.

[Captain Seafort]

The other part built a peace that lasted for more then 60 years. A peace that would lead the two powers to save the AQ from invasion and one day bring the two together into one nation.

That peace always seemed rather tenuous to me - they came close to all-out war in the mid 2340s (only the actions of the E-C prevented it), and actually went to war in late 2372 after a year of serious tension. There was also a lot of opposition to the alliance within the Enpire, as shown by the political strength of the House of Duras.

[Deepcrush]

I think it would end up being the opposite. The big 3 would end up with most of the say in most things. Humans, Klingons and Romulans would take care everything going on outside of the UFP.

[Deepcrush]

The other part built a peace that lasted for more then 60 years. A peace that would lead the two powers to save the AQ from invasion and one day bring the two together into one nation.

That peace always seemed rather tenuous to me - they came close to all-out war in the mid 2340s (only the actions of the E-C prevented it), and actually went to war in late 2372 after a year of serious tension. There was also a lot of opposition to the alliance within the Enpire, as shown by the political strength of the House of Duras.

Thats true, but did US / UK relations start any better? No, they didn't but now we're very strong allies.

[Captain Seafort]

Thats true, but did US / UK relations start any better? No, they didn't but now we're very strong allies.

The US and UK haven't got a recent track record of declaring war on each other - Franc ad Germany would probably be a better example for your argument. Even then, the scale of the opposition to the EU within either of those countries is nothing like the scale of the opposition within the Empire to the Federation alliance.

Duras was a life-long opponent of the alliance, and was probably the second most powerful man in the Empire until his death. Indeed, it could be easilly argued that he was the most powerful man in the Empire. Not only that, but after his death his supporters were prepared to support his sisters in the civil war, despite the generally low status of women in the Empire at the time. After the war, Gowron rewrote the history books to remove any mention of the Federation's role in his victory. This indicates that anti-Federation sentiment was extremely strong in the Klingon Empire during the 2360s, culminating (with a slight nudge from the Founders) in the war of 2372-2373.

[Teaos]

But the Klingon Mentality is to fundamentaly different to Humans (who pretty much control the Federation) to ever be to close.

[Deepcrush]

Anyone remembering the Vulcan's and Andorians?

Anyone thinking about Japan and the USA? Because we had such a great start and all.

Also, Gowron wasn't just doing that to gain support from the anit-feds but also to make himself look better for winning the war. Also, House Duras' support melted like ice in hell after everyone found out about their taking aid from the Romulans. No one ran off on Gowron for using SF aid. That tells me there's alot more who support the treaty then those who don't. Many in the UFP feel the same way but they are also in the minority. Overall both the UFP and KE know that for better or worse they are stuck together. It is all as was fore told.

[Captain Seafort]

Also, Gowron wasn't just doing that to gain support from the anit-feds but also to make himself look better for winning the war.

I'm not saying he was pandering to the anti-Fed faction, merely aiming to avoid getting too many backs up by shoving the fact of Picard's involvement in their faces. Though I very much doubt he lost any sleep over the fact that it also greatly improved his own image.

Also, House Duras' support melted like ice in hell after everyone found out about their taking aid from the Romulans. No one ran off on Gowron for using SF aid.

That tells us that they'd rather much ally with the Feds than the Romulans (unsurprisingly, given the Romulans tendency to stab their "allies" in the back). I'm not suggesting that most Klingons would rather be constantly at war with the Feds, merely that there's a substantial faction that mistrusts and/or actively dislikes, them and would prefer an arms-length relationship to the close alliance that currently exists.

[KuvahMagh]

Also, Gowron wasn't just doing that to gain support from the anit-feds but also to make himself look better for winning the war. Also, House Duras' support melted like ice in hell after everyone found out about their taking aid from the Romulans. No one ran off on Gowron for using SF aid. That tells me there's alot more who support the treaty then those who don't. Many in the UFP feel the same way but they are also in the minority. Overall both the UFP and KE know that for better or worse they are stuck together. It is all as was fore told.

It is also possible that Gowron realized that a close relationship with the Fed was not enviable as Chancellor, its a similar situation faced by Canadian Politicians regarding the US, popular opinion, as retarded as it may be, is against the US on many issues, indeed many politicians in our history have made a career out of slamming the US and its Policies/Leaders. The opposite side to that coin is that without the US guarantee of protection we would be broke from properly defending ourselves. Providing at least basic defence so that the US doesn't decide to just do it all which would lead us right back to the pre-1931 days and the Statute of Westminster and back to being a Colony or Vassal State with no say in our defence or security.

All of that does not directly relate the Klingon Issue but it is a similar situation to what the Klingons might see Picard's actions. He took a group of armed ships, sat just outside of their territory and effected a Blockade without their knowledge or consent. Gowron may realize the potential implications of this action, not only would it make him look weak and ineffective but it would also undermine his ability to govern and despite his desire to maintain the Treaty, if it became common knowledge that the Feds did this then he could be forced to terminate that Alliance so the safest way to protect it would be to get everyone to forget it happened, which while appears dishonorable would not be since Kahless himself said that Destroying an Empire to win a War is no Victory.

You also raised the point that they lost support once everyone discovered the Romulan help, is it not also possible, as I have said before that if Martok were to accept the possibility of the Fed/Rom Alliance that his support may dry up too?

[KuvahMagh]

On a side note to the current discussion and back to the matter at hand:

First let me say that the 10% isn't really that far off.

Remember that my 150 Ship number is only for those ships along the Border, it is inconceivable that they would keep all ships there, they would have to have ships back in the Empire.

I do not honestly believe that from what has been seen on screen over the years that the Klingons have the ability to carry out the refitting of some 900 (VERY low estimate based on the only Canon Numbers available, which have yet to be disputed aside from the fact that they are at the very bottom of the spectrum) BoP to keep them in service as something more than just Cannon Fodder, refitting the 450 Vor'Cha Cruisers (Insert same line about Very low numbers here) to the latest and greatest tech along with building the 150 Negh'Vars (Once again, insert number issue here) at the same time, even if Martok is able to gain 100% support from the people and the Council, we discount completely the possible affects of the Romulan involvement with the Federation.

I do not believe the Romulans could do this nor even the Federation, in fact the only entity shown to be capable of doing anything near this is the Dominion and there have been numerous references throughout DS9 how not even the entire Alliance could match their capacity, even Martok admitted at the end that they have an unprecedented ability to build ships.

Even if such a thing could be pulled off you make assertions that a refitted and much more massive Vor'Cha would be able to keep up without taking into account that added Mass and its potential to slow the ship down, or that such a Weapons boost would obviously require at least a reworking of the Power Plant, if not a completely new Core being installed to provide more power. Just because a big gun can fit on a ship doesn't mean it will work the way you expect, the mass difference between the Torpedo System currently in place and the Disruptor could mean a reworking of the Thruster System to compensate for the changing Center of Gravity. Simply put just adding more amour and a bigger gun does not unnecessarily mean that it will create the uber ship, otherwise you would see that Akira with 150 Torp Tubes or whatever it was supposed to have.