Worst ship design in sci-fi?

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

It depends on the TIE, natch. The original version and Interceptor were death traps for the pilots, but the Avenger and Defender models weren't so bad. Heck, the Defender's the most advanced fighter in SW.

But neither of those were produced in large numbers. If you add sheilds to the Interceptors(as many commanders, generals, and warlords did) they are formidable anti-starfighter ships. Still, I'd take an E-wing over even a TIE Defender anyday.

Yeah, but limited production doesn't take away from how good they were.

And as for TIE fighters with shields, they were from the Death Star, after all. Maybe special ones for the station?

[Blackstar the Chakat]

There was nothing in that link that showed me convincing evidence. And even so, he is a Doctor, not a source of canon information.

And while they exchanged those shots, I wonder how much damage shots at that range actually did.

I'm not suggesting that the successor is weaker, I'm suggesting your information is wrong. One mention of the range is hardly convincing evidence. Has any other book mentioned the weapons being used at that range?

Enemy Lines I: Rebel Dream and Enemy Lines II: Rebel stand take place 27 ABY. 40 years after the VenStar was used. I'm sure weapons advanced by then. And it would help to have more details, something that might be out of the ordinary may have resulted in longer ranges somehow. And I thought the Imperial fleet was all but defeated long before that. However I do admit I stopped following NJO after Balance Point. The NJO series runied Star Wars for me.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

I've looked at data on the DBY-827 heavy dual turbo-lasers. It said it could hit a target at 10 light minutes, never anything about how much damage it could do at that range. They'd probably have to focus all their reactor power to do any damage. While possible, I wouldn't do it, it would leave the ship a sitting duck. SW ships are not known for their speed in such situations, whether sublight speeds or doing anything for that matter.

[Captain Seafort]

There was nothing in that link that showed me convincing evidence. And even so, he is a Doctor, not a source of canon information.

I agree it would have been helpful if Saxton had posted the calculations used to determine the range, but nonetheless the data is canon. Saxton's website itself isn't a canon source, but all his calculations are derived from the original canon, and determine the inevitable implications of what is depicted in canon.

And while they exchanged those shots, I wonder how much damage shots at that range actually did.

"Thermonuclear fireworks" at the very least, according to the RotJ novelisation - enough to physically rock a four-kilometre long warship.

I'm not suggesting that the successor is weaker, I'm suggesting your information is wrong. One mention of the range is hardly convincing evidence. Has any other book mentioned the weapons being used at that range?

You are indeed claiming that the ImpStar has a much shorter weapons range than the VenStar. You're also claiming that the ISD has an optimum weapons range shorter than that of an AT-AT (17.28 km minimum, per ESB). This is quite apart from the fact that the ship is capable of bombarding a planet very effective from high orbit, per the Base Delta Zero order.

Enemy Lines I: Rebel Dream and Enemy Lines II: Rebel stand take place 27 ABY. 40 years after the VenStar was used. I'm sure weapons advanced by then. And it would help to have more details, something that might be out of the ordinary may have resulted in longer ranges somehow. And I thought the Imperial fleet was all but defeated long before that. However I do admit I stopped following NJO after Balance Point. The NJO series runied Star Wars for me.

The attack in "Rebel Stand" involved a bog-standard NR warship. No special weapons at all, and the impact inflicted as much damage as a turbolaser hit - which means gigatonne-range firepower at least, even t that range.

The Star Wars civilisation is over 25 thousand years old. It has reached a point of technological stasis. To claim that they could make significant improvements to their weapons range over a mere thirty years is akin to claiming that we could have developed and detonated a viable thermonuclear weapon within a couple of weeks of the Trinity test.

Your entire argument has consisted of picking at straws, from grumbling a canon source simply because it provides an upper limit, to this nitpicking about the amount of damage done at extreme range. Multiple sources have been provided to demonstrate that SW ships can hit targets at extremely long range, and inflict damage at that range. Deal with it.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

In TESB we see an ISD out of range of hitting the Falcon at 135 kilometers, and doesn't get into range until about 75 kilometers. Now even if range and accuracy and all that are affected by target size then the maximum range would be 5500 kilometers. And that's being generous. Now this is based on CANON evidence, from the movies which overrides the books in matters of canon.

[Captain Seafort]

What are your sources for these numbers? The only time in the films a range to target was mentioned was for Veers' AT-AT in ESB.

[Sionnach Glic]

In TESB we see an ISD out of range of hitting the Falcon at 135 kilometers, and doesn't get into range until about 75 kilometers.

Source for these numbers?

Now this is based on CANON evidence, from the movies which overrides the books in matters of canon.

By all means, show me where in the films it states these ranges.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

http://st-v-sw.net/STSWwarsrange.html

http://st-v-sw.net/STSWwarsrange.html#II-B -for that specific scene

Oh, and my guy has numbers and calculations. Your guy didn't. My guy used two different methods. Your guy didn't have one.

[Captain Seafort]

"Your guy" is a known liar and idiot. If Darkstar claimed water was wet I'd want independant verification.

[Sionnach Glic]

Blackstar, although I usualy try to remain polite I will just have to bluntly say that that guy is an idiot, and has no sense of honesty when it comes to these things. He even claimed that people who had criticised his work had written death threats to him.
He claims the max range of the Falcon's weapons is two hundred metres, despite us seeing hand weapons being used at longer ranges than that.
He makes up his own canon policies so he can exlude evidence he doesn't like, and even argued with Star Trek writers over the canonicity of the episodes they wrote.
He claims the Death Star destroys planets through some unseen chain reaction, has the firepower of 23 gigatons, and that there were no atmospheric effects seen during Alderaan's destruction.
He claims that stone is just dirt when it helps him.
He claims that it took for the Rebel fleet to reach Endor, despite Leia saying 'they'll be here any moment'.
And, to top it all off, he claims that humans in SW are born with metal spines.

Are you sure you want to use this guy as backup?
Pretty much his entire site is deconstructed and his arguments torn apart here, I'd advise you to have a read of it.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Are you sure you want to use this guy as backup?

um...not sure anymore...but still, not a reason to just dismiss those numbers is it? He does make some good points in his SW vs ST site about some falacys I've seen. And judging by that Empirial symbol that guy that's ripping on 'my guy' heavily favors Star Wars.

[Captain Seafort]

Yes, Mike Wong does believe that a Trek/Wars versus debate is a curbstomp in Wars' favour. Given the firepower (Terawatt for Trek, Teratonne for Wars), scale (the Feds control a fraction of one quadrant, the Empire controls a galaxy) and speed (Voyager would have taken decades to cross the Galaxy, the Falcon can do it in days) involved, that isn't surprising.

I repeat, Darkstar is in no way a reliable source - his lack of understanding of anything resembling physics, or even common sense, means that anything he says must be assumed to be false (due either to incompetance or dishonesty) unless proven otherwise.

[Sionnach Glic]

but still, not a reason to just dismiss those numbers is it?

It is when he just pulls stuff out of his ass and distorts or even ignores contradictory canon evidence to help his claims. Fact is, we've nver seen any SW cap-ship try to hit something, yet be out of range. That implies that they have very long ranges, I think Seafort pointed out the distances involved in the battle of Endor. Thus the ten light-minutes range fits in perfectly.

And judging by that Empirial symbol that guy that's ripping on 'my guy' heavily favors Star Wars.

Actualy, that wasn't the site owner's essay. It was written by another guy, who then gave the site owner permission to put it on the site. Granted, the site is very pro-SW, but it has all the calcs worked out perfectly, and there for everyone to see.

[Blackstar the Chakat]

Didn't they close into point blank range in ROTJ?

[Sionnach Glic]

Yes, so the Superlaser couldn't hit the Rebel ships without damaging or destroying Imperial ships. They were already shooting at the ISDs before they closed.