Self Replicating mines!?!

[Mikey]

Maybe they should have burned Neelix for energy.

[Reliant121]

That would be good if you only needed positive energy.

[mlsnoopy]

Why? This is a bomb we're talking about - the bigger the bang, the better.

True. But the mines were small. That is why they were designed to go up in groups.
Can you replicate antimatter. I think not. So how could a single mine restablished a complete mine fild. My answer is that they didn't use antimatter.

When was a shielded ship ever destroyed by a single PT? Given the sheer size and power of a Jem'Hadar battlecruiser I'd say that the fact that they only go off in groups of 20 or 30 is evidence that they're either equal or superior in power to PTs.

It was said that a single mine would not be affective against a ship.Well most of the fleet was made up from the Bug fighter and I think that it counts as a ship. 20 or 30 to destroy a bug.

How abaut one mine droped in an enemies system. That would be an effective tactic.

[Captain Seafort]

True. But the mines were small. That is why they were designed to go up in groups.
Can you replicate antimatter. I think not. So how could a single mine restablished a complete mine fild. My answer is that they didn't use antimatter.

The idea was that mass would be transferred from across the entire mine network, so each individual mine would only contribute a fraction of each replacement. I see no reason why antimatter could not be transferred in the same way.

It was said that a single mine would not be affective against a ship.Well most of the fleet was made up from the Bug fighter and I think that it counts as a ship. 20 or 30 to destroy a bug.

There were battlecruisers coming through as well, and they had to be capable of destroying any ship that entered the Alpha Quadrant. Assuming that they were using the weakest Dominion ship as a yardstick for the number of mine detonations needed is frankly idiotic.

[mlsnoopy]

The idea was that mass would be transferred from across the entire mine network, so each individual mine would only contribute a fraction of each replacement. I see no reason why antimatter could not be transferred in the same way.

A simgle mine could reastablish the mine fild. That is why. And in time you run out of antimatter.

There were battlecruisers coming through as well, and they had to be capable of destroying any ship that entered the Alpha Quadrant. Assuming that they were using the weakest Dominion ship as a yardstick for the number of mine detonations needed is frankly idiotic

How large was the mine fild. And we don't know what was the standart. In the ideal case a single mine should be able to destoy the most powerfull ship. I would take for the stadndart the most numeros ship not the strongest.

The question was is a mine stronger than a PT or not. I say that is weaker.

How abaut using the mine as an offencive weapon. You drop a few into an astoride fild and wait for them to multiply and than send them against a stationery target in te system (a shipyard or something). With thos truster that we have seen it could probably get acros a system in a few days.

[Captain Picard's Hair]

Well, then, it's another case of the writers not thinking things through and producing inconsistent writing. The transporter can't transmute, yet has always been assumed to be capable of replicating almost anything by the crew

There's still my *canon* Captain Picard beaming out as energy example to consider (I don't remember the name of the episode). And, what is the evidence that transporters/replicators can't transmute that we're working off?

[Captain Seafort]

A simgle mine could reastablish the mine fild. That is why. And in time you run out of antimatter.

Source? Of course you'll run out of antimatter eventually - the intention was to keep the wormhole sealed for as long as possible. Keeping it sealed perminantly would effectively require a perpetual motion machine, which is impossible.

How large was the mine fild. And we don't know what was the standart. In the ideal case a single mine should be able to destoy the most powerfull ship. I would take for the stadndart the most numeros ship not the strongest.

If you want to deny an enemy armoured unit access to a given piece of ground you do not deploy AP mines - you use AT mines, with AP mines scattered around to prevent hand-clearence. In a similar way, the wormhole minefield must be set up to prevent the pasage of any Dominion ships, not just the bugs.

The question was is a mine stronger than a PT or not. I say that is weaker.

It typically takes dozens of PT hits to destroy a battlecruiser-sized ship. The mines were set to detonate in groups of 20 to 30. Therefore the mines are roughly equal in power to a PT.

How abaut using the mine as an offencive weapon. You drop a few into an astoride fild and wait for them to multiply and than send them against a stationery target in te system (a shipyard or something). With thos truster that we have seen it could probably get acros a system in a few days.

Several problems with that theory.

1) The mines can't multiply themselves, they can only maintain a given minefield, and that only for a limited period of time.

2) They've only got station keeping thrusters - the majority of the casing is filled with the warhead and a proximity fuse.

3) Why would you want to send a vulnerable swarm of mines against a target at low speed when you could protect them most of the way to the target and then launch them at high speed (vastly reducing the chances of them being intercepted) by sending a BoP in and firing off PTs?

[Captain Picard's Hair]

Update: the episode was "Lonely Among Us," an early first season TNG episode. http://www.ditl.org/hedepisode.php?TNG6

If the mines run out of antimatter too quickly, there's still the matter of why the Dominion completely ruled out the idea of trying to run through it, even with the idea of automated boxes with engines I proposed. Either there was a LOT of antimatter, or it could be replenished.

[Captain Seafort]

Update: the episode was "Lonely Among Us," an early first season TNG episode. http://www.ditl.org/hedepisode.php?TNG6

That was the transporter, not the replicators, and whilethe two systems clearly operate on similar principles, they're not identical.

As for the replicators being unable to transmute elements:

Code of Honor: The E-D needs to obtain a vaccine to a disease from the Ligonians. They can't replicate it.

The Child: The E-D needs to transport samples of a plague to a reaserch facility. It can't be scanned and replicated.

The Enemy: Worf was asked to donate blood for a Romulan because the replicator couldn't produce their blood.

[Captain Picard's Hair]

Holy cow! There's yet another problem with the minefield I just thought of: their cloaks! It takes a continuous outlay of power to run the cloaks continuously, steadily draining their (presumed) antimatter supply - or whatever it is that powers them! In principle, the Dominion should be able to simply wait out until the mines have drained themselves completely!

[Reliant121]

Interrupting in the middle without reading previous posts. Perhaps they had some form of solar power system. Or perhaps something similar to the Bussard collectors could collect particles that can be used as power.

[Captain Picard's Hair]

Update: the episode was "Lonely Among Us," an early first season TNG episode. http://www.ditl.org/hedepisode.php?TNG6

That was the transporter, not the replicators, and whilethe two systems clearly operate on similar principles, they're not identical.

As for the replicators being unable to transmute elements:

Code of Honor: The E-D needs to obtain a vaccine to a disease from the Ligonians. They can't replicate it.

The Child: The E-D needs to transport samples of a plague to a reaserch facility. It can't be scanned and replicated.

The Enemy: Worf was asked to donate blood for a Romulan because the replicator couldn't produce their blood.

Ah, yes, the old "device works only the way the plot demands" chestnut. If I were to really pick nits, we don't know for certain the exact reason these things can't be replicated.

[Captain Seafort]

Ah, yes, the old "device works only the way the plot demands" chestnut. If I were to really pick nits, we don't know for certain the exact reason these things can't be replicated.

WRT the romulan blood, Crusher specifically said that "the molecules are too complex". The same thing was said of a glass of rainwater in another episode, but I can't remember which one.

It's true that most of these limitations are plot-driven, but if we want to analyse what replicators are capable of in-universe, we have to ignore that.

[mlsnoopy]

Source? Of course you'll run out of antimatter eventually - the intention was to keep the wormhole sealed for as long as possible. Keeping it sealed perminantly would effectively require a perpetual motion machine, which is impossible.

When the Dominion was traying to take down the fild they were affraid than one mines would remain. If you use fusion reactors you can colect H2.

If you want to deny an enemy armoured unit access to a given piece of ground you do not deploy AP mines - you use AT mines, with AP mines scattered around to prevent hand-clearence. In a similar way, the wormhole minefield must be set up to prevent the pasage of any Dominion ships, not just the bugs

They had limited time and size. You are planing to take down a fleet of 2500 bugs and 500 BC not a fleet of 3000 BC.

1) The mines can't multiply themselves, they can only maintain a given minefield, and that only for a limited period of time.

If you have replicators and a source of elements, like an astoride field and a fusion reactor which suplys the power why not. You just need a computer to give a pattern.

2) They've only got station keeping thrusters - the majority of the casing is filled with the warhead and a proximity fuse.

Aren't they called manuvering thrusters. With subspace fields you don't need a lot of thrust.

3) Why would you want to send a vulnerable swarm of mines against a target at low speed when you could protect them most of the way to the target and then launch them at high speed (vastly reducing the chances of them being intercepted) by sending a BoP in and firing off PTs?

Cloaked mines. Agains an unsuspective target. Without a ship to give them away. Enemy woudn't know what hit him. And if you remove their weak point you sneek a mine field into a shipyard and do alot of damage.


I saw potencial in a weapon. Think it would be great to use them in such a way.

[Captain Seafort]

They had limited time and size. You are planing to take down a fleet of 2500 bugs and 500 BC not a fleet of 3000 BC.

you are attempting to claim that the figure of 20-30 mines per target refers to bugs. I am pointing out that your thinking is fallacious. You can't take out a fleet if you only taget their smaller ships, just as you can't take out an armoured division with AP mines.

If you have replicators and a source of elements, like an astoride field and a fusion reactor which suplys the power why not. You just need a computer to give a pattern.

As has been pointed out above, replicators are incapable of elemental transmutation. You need to put in refined materials if you want to get refined materials out.

Aren't they called manuvering thrusters. With subspace fields you don't need a lot of thrust.

What subspace field? Starships have them, stations can generate them, with a few modifications. Mines, with the interior dedicated to warhead, detonator and cloak, can't.

Cloaked mines. Agains an unsuspective target. Without a ship to give them away. Enemy woudn't know what hit him. And if you remove their weak point you sneek a mine field into a shipyard and do alot of damage.

So, how exactly do you get the mines into the system? By ship - a ship that can be detected, and its activities likely to be deduced. You'd be better off launching a conventional hit-and-run raid while you're there rather than mess around with mines.