BETA SIM IC THREAD

[Mark]

PERHAPS OUR DIFFICULTY IS IN NOT UNDERSTANDING WHAT EXACTLY IS BEING VIOLATED. HOW DOES TRADE VIA UNCLAIMED TERRITORY VIOLATE A MILITARY CEASEFIRE?

[Reliant121]

The trade does not. Cardassian claims to any system south of their current border does.

[Mark]

AND WHAT EXACTLY ARE THE CARDASSIANS REQUIRED TO DO TO BE RELEASED FROM THIS TERM OF TREATY?

[BigJKU316]

They have simply to sign a peace treaty or give 60 days notice and restart the war. This was all published to all nations and the Union accepted.

1. All Union forces will withdrawl to within Cardassian borders.
2. The Union agrees that its rimward (southern) border will be fixed along the current claim line for the period of this cease-fire.
3. The Allied forces (Federation, Ferengi, Klingon) agree not to violate established Cardassian borders for the period of this ceasefire.
4. Any and all prisoners taken by both sides, civilian or military, during the conflict will be returned immediatly.
5. The cease-fire will govern relations between the four powers until a formal peace can be concluded that is satisfactory to all powers or until 60 days public written notice is given of the intent to withdrawl from these accords.

Trade does not violate anything. However as you noted Federation borders are closed to the Union and will remain so until a formal peace treaty is concluded. Terms for that treaty have been delivered to the Union that the alliance powers would sign tomorrow. They have not signed that proposal nor made a proposal acceptable to the alliance to this point.

As we stated we look forward to working with the powers actually in that region in a productive manner on this issue. We feel that any claims locking any power into its present borders would be unwise and suggest that the Tholian, Jacorn and Federation move forward on the principal that all powers should have access to rimward development.

[Tyyr]

The Federation is well aware that we have already extended an offer to repay the Ferengi loans. However if we are to repay the Ferengi we must have trade. To that end we have taken steps to secure a trade route. We have seen the folly in depending on another power to allow trade to travel through their space. The Federation has also seen fit to wage economic warfare on other powers by expanding their territory to force us to depend on their "benevolence" to let trade travel through their territory. They took steps to cut off trade between the Breen and Romulans and now they are taking steps to cut off trade between the Union and the Tholian Empire suddenly expanding into territory that has long lain fallow and expanding their borders into neutral space, for instance the corridor between the Ferengi Alliance and the Federation has gone from neutral space to being claimed by the Federation.

Rather than allow the Federation to continue expanding and further trying to dictate who may trade with who the Cardassian Union and Tholian Empire have claimed a region of space vital to our mutual interests. We are willing to discuss steps to preserve neutral corridors through this space so that actual exploration my continue rimward. The Jacorn Alliance can easily continue expanding to the rimward and spinward (S and SE). Our claims impact only a narrow window directly antispinward (W) for Jacorn expansion.

To reiterate, the claims stand in order to protect a trade route. We have made the offer to repay the Ferengi loans which the Federation knew prior to rambling on about the ceasefire. We are sending no military ships, for the moment, but we are dispatching peaceful exploration vessels. If the Federation actually wishes to normalize relations then we will normalize them.

As we stated and as you well know the offer was made to repay the Ferengi loans.

[Mark]

THEN THAT SHOUD BE THAT, AS THEY SAY IN TERRAN?

[BigJKU316]

The Federation is well aware that we have already extended an offer to repay the Ferengi loans. However if we are to repay the Ferengi we must have trade. To that end we have taken steps to secure a trade route. We have seen the folly in depending on another power to allow trade to travel through their space. The Federation has also seen fit to wage economic warfare on other powers by expanding their territory to force us to depend on their "benevolence" to let trade travel through their territory. They took steps to cut off trade between the Breen and Romulans and now they are taking steps to cut off trade between the Union and the Tholian Empire suddenly expanding into territory that has long lain fallow and expanding their borders into neutral space, for instance the corridor between the Ferengi Alliance and the Federation has gone from neutral space to being claimed by the Federation.

Rather than allow the Federation to continue expanding and further trying to dictate who may trade with who the Cardassian Union and Tholian Empire have claimed a region of space vital to our mutual interests. We are willing to discuss steps to preserve neutral corridors through this space so that actual exploration my continue rimward. The Jacorn Alliance can easily continue expanding to the rimward and spinward (S and SE). Our claims impact only a narrow window directly antispinward (W) for Jacorn expansion.

To reiterate, the claims stand in order to protect a trade route. We have made the offer to repay the Ferengi loans which the Federation knew prior to rambling on about the ceasefire. We are sending no military ships, for the moment, but we are dispatching peaceful exploration vessels. If the Federation actually wishes to normalize relations then we will normalize them.

As we stated and as you well know the offer was made to repay the Ferengi loans.

The Union made its offer to repay the Ferengi 3 minutes after making public its territorial claims so you can hardly claim that the territorial expansion is the result of a refused offer that had not yet been tendered to the Allies, much less been given a reasonable time to generate a reply.

None the less the Federation rejects your proposal. We will not guarantee anything to the Union. We will simply note that trade from all powers other than the Union has passed without incident. The Breen trade was subject to a fee, the same fee that was imposed by the Cardassian Union in fact. Trade to the Union is now forbidden as the Union and Federation are at war. No trade routes outside of this war have been rejected by this government. We are not going to extend to the Union a guarantee we would not extend any other power simply because of your stubborn nature. As we have told everyone else, trade routes will be considered on a case by case basis taking into account all impacts they might have. We will promise no more and owe to our people nothing less.

The cease-fire remains in place. The terms are public and clear. We expect them to be followed.

[Tyyr]

Perhaps the Federation should take the time to actually read what was written? At no point did we make the claim that our territorial claims had anything to due with a refused offer. The primary sticking point in peace negotiations going forward was repayment of the Ferengi loans. We have made our offer to repay the Ferengi loans and therefore to continue negotiations. However we cannot make payments without trade which you have oh so graciously terminated. If you actually care about the collecting their money we will need trade. We took steps to secure that trade.

Also, we did not demand a guarantee you would extend to no one else. Again, try to read what is written. We stated that we were willing to repay the loans if we could establish a trade route. Unless you are not willing to allow anyone else to trade through your space at all I don't think this is an unreasonable provision. Additionally given the disintegration of the Hyllus what are our options? The Tholians, Jacorn, and Romulans are our options two of whom we trade routes established with for many years prior to your severing them. Again, please explain how this is unreasonable? We need trade to have any ability to repay the Ferengi. If there's no trade there will be no repayment.

[BigJKU316]

Perhaps the Federation should take the time to actually read what was written? At no point did we make the claim that our territorial claims had anything to due with a refused offer. The primary sticking point in peace negotiations going forward was repayment of the Ferengi loans. We have made our offer to repay the Ferengi loans and therefore to continue negotiations. However we cannot make payments without trade which you have oh so graciously terminated. If you actually care about the collecting their money we will need trade. We took steps to secure that trade.

Also, we did not demand a guarantee you would extend to no one else. Again, try to read what is written. We stated that we were willing to repay the loans if we could establish a trade route. Unless you are not willing to allow anyone else to trade through your space at all I don't think this is an unreasonable provision. Additionally given the disintegration of the Hyllus what are our options? The Tholians, Jacorn, and Romulans are our options two of whom we trade routes established with for many years prior to your severing them. Again, please explain how this is unreasonable? We need trade to have any ability to repay the Ferengi. If there's no trade there will be no repayment.

You continue to refer to the Federation as having severed your trade routes, however that is not really the case. Even when we were publicly disputing your role in the Breen Insurgency the Federation did not cut your trade routes. Your trade routes were cut when you elected to make war on a nation the Federation was bound by treaty to protect and thus plunged our two peoples into war. The fact that the Union has no trade rest on the shoulders of your government.

As a practical matter your government did not offer to pay the Ferengi loan if we allowed trade routes. The exact offer was delivered to the Federation as follows:

The Cardassian Union is willing to negotiate repayment of loans to the Ferengi if, and only if, the Union will be able to establish trade routes with other powers.

Our understanding of this is that you would consider paying the Ferengi something "if, and only if" the Union was allowed to establish trade with other powers. This is hardly the black and white statement of if you allow us the trade necessary we will pay the Ferengi back in full that you seem to be painting it as.

Regardless the statement is absurd on its face. If one borrowed a garden hose from one man they would not condition the return of that hose on having unlimited access to a third man's swimming pool. The Federation can't and won't assure trade for any power. We will enter into such negotiations only after a peace treaty is signed that satisfies all of the allied peoples.

More than that it is becoming difficult to know which international agreements the Union will feel itself bound by. You agree to a loan then refuse to pay it back. You agree to a cease-fire then just flat violate one of its conditions. One would hope that others can understand the confusion among the allied powers at this point as to what exactly the Union might consider binding and what it might not.

Despite all of this we remain willing to make peace. But we are not going to be making concessions or promises to the Union to get them to simply live up to agreeements whcih they lawfully entered.

[Tyyr]

You continue to refer to the Federation as having severed your trade routes, however that is not really the case. Even when we were publicly disputing your role in the Breen Insurgency the Federation did not cut your trade routes. Your trade routes were cut when you elected to make war on a nation the Federation was bound by treaty to protect and thus plunged our two peoples into war.

So pray tell how does the Federation both not sever our trade routes and do it at the same time? Right now you declare that no trade ships may pass into our nation from yours. How is this not severing trade? The Union declared war on the Ferengi, this we do not dispute but the decision to cut trade routes with uninvolved powers was the Federation's to make.

The fact that the Union has no trade rest on the shoulders of your government.

And the fact that we cannot reestablish it in order to pay the debt rests on yours.

As a practical matter your government did not offer to pay the Ferengi loan if we allowed trade routes. The exact offer was delivered to the Federation as follows:

The Cardassian Union is willing to negotiate repayment of loans to the Ferengi if, and only if, the Union will be able to establish trade routes with other powers.

Our understanding of this is that you would consider paying the Ferengi something "if, and only if" the Union was allowed to establish trade with other powers. This is hardly the black and white statement of if you allow us the trade necessary we will pay the Ferengi back in full that you seem to be painting it as.

Do you have a statesman we can talk to or will we be forced to continue discussing this situation with lawyers? Did it occur to the Federation to seek clarification on that point? There are many things to negotiate when it comes to a loan repayment, amounts, durations, interest rates, all of which must be ironed out prior to finalizing the repayment plan. The Union will not waste time on these details until we have secured assurances that we will be able to establish trade so that we could actually repay any monies. If we cannot trade there will be no money available to repay and any further negotiations as to terms are a collective waste of time.

By the gods you are a paranoid fool. We are seeking to establish a trade route through Federation space, if we do not pay your lackey's money back all you must do is close the route as you have already demonstrated the ability to. What risk are you at? What risk are the Ferengi at? Any trade route would obviously be contingent upon loan repayment, no repayment no trade.

The Federation has already proven itself to have the military strength to protect it's client states and the Union to be unable to take and hold territory in said states. We've suffered a great loss in ships and will not be up to our former strength for years, years the Federation will only continue to grow stronger during. We cannot threaten you or your underlings militarily or economically which has been proven. You've stroke a blow to our military that will take a great deal of time to recover from. We've have no objections to agreeing to Ferengi territorial integrity, we are willing to repay their loan, what more is the Federation seeking?

Regardless the statement is absurd on its face.

The only thing that is absurd is your attempt to reduce a situation such as this into a poor analogy.

The Federation can't and won't assure trade for any power.

The Federation has allowed trade routes between the Cardassians and most other local powers without objection previously. What we are asking is that those routes be opened once again, nothing more.

We will enter into such negotiations only after a peace treaty is signed that satisfies all of the allied peoples.

And you refer to us as stubborn? Perhapse you should learn to accept the fact that unless the Cardassian Union is satisfied with the terms as well there will be no treaty? We will not sign a treaty that will bankrupt our nation to satisfy you. Perhapse you should look at your own history for examples of what happens when victors attempt to pile onerous stipulations into "peace treaties." In the first of your world wars the victors forced the defeated to sign a treaty that destituted their nation and lead directly to the second of your world wars. However at the conclusion of that war the victors proved themselves willing to work with the defeated and instead of simmering hatred it resulted in former enemies becoming strong allies.

The Union has already shown that we are willing to move our position and discuss terms as civilized nations.

[Tyyr]

Given that it seems to be a point of contention after conferring with one another the Tholian Empire and Cardassian Union are willing to renounce our claim on the region of space defined by systems 574, 577, 579 though 597, 951, and 632 provided that this region of space be preserved as neutral, unclaimed, uncolonized space by any party.

[stitch626]

As much as this amuses us, the Ferengi Alliance feels that if the Union wishes to reopen negotiations, then we should stop arguing and begin such negotiations. All this arguing will do is delay the opening of trade routes and the return of the loans.

Please, let us take this to private channels.

[BigJKU316]

Since others have expressed an interest in the progress of these talks at the moment the Alliance has submitted the following the the Union for approval and is awaiting an reply after a round of discourse on the subject. We will keep powers apprised of developments.

Treaty of Ferenginar

In the interest of restoring peace, normalizing economic relations and returning prosperity to the region the following is agreed to by the Cardassian Union (Union) and the United Federation of Planets, Klingon Empire and Ferengi Alliance (Allies).

I. Territorial Provisions

1. The Union agrees that it will make no claims on the following worlds 310, 314 - 319, 321, 322, 562, 565, 566, 568, 570, or 571.

2. The Union agrees that it will make claims to territory of any kind within 50 LY's of the currently recognized boarders of the Ferengi Alliance.

3. The Union agrees that its present rimward border will be the effective limit of its rimward claims out to 200 LY's west of system 558 and continuing from system 558 to the present rimward border at any time during the next 25 standard years.

4. The Union renoucnes its prior claim on systems 574, 577, 579 though 597, 951, and 632 entierly in order to comply with the above.

5. The Union renoucnes its claims on any space that was formerly goverened by the Breen.

II. Economic Provisions

1. The Union will re-affirm its debts owed to the Ferengi Alliance in the interest of galactic economic stability. The following is the accounting for that debt.

Loan 1 4,000,000 credits at 5%, interest due annually unpaid for three years.
Loan 2 12,000,000 credits at 3%, interest due annually unpaid for three years.

Total Principal Due: 16,000,000 Credits
Past Due Interest Due Now: 1,743,224
This years interest Due: 560,000

2. The Union will repay this sum in the following manner.

Year 1: 1,500,000 credits. 560,000 Interest payment. 940,000 Past due interest.

Year 2: 1,500,000 credits. 560,000 Interest payment. 803,224 Past due interest. 136,776 Loan 1 Principal payment.

Year 3-Completion: 1,500,000 credits. Full interest payment, remainder to principal of loan 1 till it is paid off then to loan 2's principal until it is paid off.

3. The Ferengi Alliance, in order to facilitate this payment schedule agree to not capitalize the past due interest of 803,224 that will not be paid this fiscal year and to accept this sum as the full payment for obligations due under these two loan agreements.

III. Political Provisions

1. Breen space will be administered by the Federation, Klingon Empire and two neutral powers one of whom will be appointed by the Federation and Klingons and the other by the Union from the governments recognized by all three powers. Those powers shall provide security in Breen space and have the task of organizing a new Breen government. This mandate will run for 20 years.

2. The above appointments of neutral parties shall be made within 30 days of the signing of this treaty so that the task of forming a functioning Breen government can begin as soon as possible.

3. The Federation and the Union agree in order to facilitate the development of a stable and secure situation with the Breen that when a government there is formed and certified by the mandate authroity that they will observe provisions I and II of the Treaty of Lissepia which are quoted below.

I. A security zone will be established upon Cardassian Union/Breen Confederacy and United Federation of Planets/Breen Confederacy borders. The zone will be fifteen lightyears in width, extending ten light years into Breen space from the currently agreed upon border and five years into Cardassian Union and United Federation of Planets space from the currently agreed upon border.

II. The signatories agree not to deploy warships into this security zone without prior notification of the other signatories and receipt of their consent. All signatories agree not to unnecessarily withhold consent for necessary security functions such as combating pirates.


4. The Federation and Cardassian Union agree that provisions 3 and 4 are stricken from the Treaty of Lisspeia and that such decisions regarding tarrifs and trade security will be made by each government on a case by case basis.

[Tyyr]

The Union is not willing to sign this as it is presented. We take issue with section one, provisions three and four. We stand ready to sign the treaty if these provisions are removed. The Union has attempted time and time again to offer the "Alliance" alternatives which they have stubbornly refused.

We will forward to any interested party a complete record of the negotiations so far.

[Reliant121]

The Union has proved just as stubborn as we. You who are for some insane reason desperate to colonize southward when you have a multitude of planets to expand uncontested to your westward borders. From all I have seen I can see simple, if politely decorated attempt to box the Federation in. That space is no right of yours, it is the right of the Ferengi. The area where your fancy trade "corridor" are the right of the Ferengi and the Clorans, they are nothing to do with you. Why do you insist on making demands like you are victors? You claim the alliance backed out since we dont have the stomach for a real fight when who was it who agreed to a cease fire, who was it who surrendered? What was it...."You lacked the spine to finish the war and force us to accept terms." The alliance won, you lost because you were so poorly equipped or unable to stomach the loss of Cardassian life at the hands of an overwhelming Alliance force. Who has not the spine now?