BETA SIM IC THREAD

[BigJKU316]

The Federation still wishes section 1 to be reduced to a simple statement that this treaty is intended to reduce the threat of the use of such weapons without offering an opinion on their utility as weapons of war. While between our powers they may not be useful against enemies yet undiscovered they might become a weapon of last resort for any of our powers. We would either wish to see the section struck from the treaty or modified as we stated before.

Section 6 is still too non-specific. It needs to specify what actions are and are not allowed by all signatories of the treaty. As always any nation would be free to go beyond that but not under the cover of this treaty. They would be compelled to make a stand alone position on the issue and standup to normal international scrutiny. We will not sign any treaty that either explicitly or implicitly endorses unlimited military action by other powers without specifying the exact nature of the offense necessary and the procredure necessary to bring about such action.

As written the treaty would seem to endorse an unlimited war of conquest against a power that has one of its private citizens found smuggling bio-memetic gel. The temptation by many to use this treaty as cover for conquest is something we would prefer to avoid.

[Tyyr]

The Cardassian Union considers this treaty to be vital to the stability and security of our region of the galaxy and we are willing to reduce the opening verbiage if that means it will not delay signing of the treaty. However we also must remind everyone of what we are talking about. Trilithium devices which could conceivably be used to halt all nuclear reactions in a star consigning the worlds around it to freezing or perhaps even destroy them outright due to the star's collapse and a possible supernova like shockwave. Focused radiation weapons that indiscriminately exterminate ALL life upon a planet. Genesis devices who's only use is the total destruction of planet reducing it to rubble. Biological weapons that will inflict disease and suffering indiscriminately upon a population. Chemical weapons that will exterminate sapient creatures as if they were no more than insects. We find it curious and more than a bit distressing to see that the only power who has protested calling these weapons what they are, barbaric devices of genocide, is the Federation. We are more aware than anyone of the changes the Dominion War forced upon all our nations. Apparently they were not all for the better.

The section will be amended.

Section six exists because numerous powers have expressed concerns over this treaty reducing their sovereignty. This treaty is not intended to serve as a cover for war. The Klingon Empire, Tholian Empire, and Cardassian Union would not hide behind a piece of paper. The section is intended to give the signatories the option to refer violations to the group as a whole but not restrict the actions they may chose to take for their own security.

Dorvan Non-Proliferation Treaty

1. This treaty exists to reduce the threat of the use of weapons of mass destruction by limiting their spread.

2. Weapons of Mass Destruction are defined as weapons that can destroy planets or stars in their entirety, who have the power to destroy all sapient life upon a planet, or can render subspace impassible. Weapons that will be covered in these treaty are, but are not limited to, directed radiation weapons such as tholaron radiation emitters, trilithium based weapons, subspace weapons, forced terraforming weapons (Genesis devices), biological weapons, and chemical weapons. These article may be amended to include new classes of weapons with the consent of all signatories.
a. Tri-Cobalt devices are excluded from this treaty.

3. In order to halt the spread of these weapons the signatories of this treaty agree to neither sell nor purchase any weapons of mass destruction or the technology to construct or research them to or from any other entity be it a nation state, organization, or individual be they a signatory of this treaty or not.

4. If any attempt is made or offer received to sell or purchase these weapons by or to a signatory the signatory shall publicly disclose the event as well as the parties involved immediately.

5. To enforce this treaty the signatories shall reserve the right to search any foreign ship be it trade, warship, or private, of another nation that crosses into its territory. They may use whatever means they deem appropriate to conduct the search. The force used to enact a search should be proportional. Signatories do not have the right to conduct searches or scans on vessels inside another nation's territory.

6. If the transfer of banned weapons or technology is discovered the signatories may elect to refer the violation to the larger treaty body as a whole for collective discussion or intervention but the treaty will in no way bind signatories to courses of action they do not endorse or to discussion with the full treaty body. The treaty will not impede the signatories rights as sovereign powers to protect their nations.

7. Signatories of this treaty may withdraw at any time with public notice of their intentions.

[BigJKU316]

The Cardassian Union considers this treaty to be vital to the stability and security of our region of the galaxy and we are willing to reduce the opening verbiage if that means it will not delay signing of the treaty. However we also must remind everyone of what we are talking about. Trilithium devices which could conceivably be used to halt all nuclear reactions in a star consigning the worlds around it to freezing or perhaps even destroy them outright due to the star's collapse and a possible supernova like shockwave. Focused radiation weapons that indiscriminately exterminate ALL life upon a planet. Genesis devices who's only use is the total destruction of planet reducing it to rubble. Biological weapons that will inflict disease and suffering indiscriminately upon a population. Chemical weapons that will exterminate sapient creatures as if they were no more than insects. We find it curious and more than a bit distressing to see that the only power who has protested calling these weapons what they are, barbaric devices of genocide, is the Federation. We are more aware than anyone of the changes the Dominion War forced upon all our nations. Apparently they were not all for the better.

The Cardassian Ambassador should take more care when interpreting what others are saying. We don't object to having the weapons called weapons of mass destruction. What we object to is the notion that they have no military utility and have no reasonable scenario in which they could be used. There may be rational circumstances under which such weapons may need to be used, either for military or scientific purposes and we feel the treaty goes too far in stating they have no military or scientific utility.

As the greatest threats the CU has faced thus far seem to be the result of the former governments own lust for power we don't fully expect you to understand some of the more existential threats that exist in the galaxy. But we can say that in the face of say a Borg invasion we would be very hesitant to be critical of a power making use of whatever weapons they might have at their disposal to try and ensure their survival. Certainly the use of a Trilithium weapon or radiation weapon against a civilized power is something no one would support but against the Borg or even more dangerous species that have been encountered we feel it would be the height of arrogance for us to tell other powers the means by which they should resist such forces when they are encountered.

As for section 6 we will sign if it is ammedned to include the following at the end. "Additionally nothing in this treaty binds any signatory to either implicitly or explicitly support a course of action taken by one power against another for accused violations of this treaty."

As it is stated now it would take little more than one power saying it has caught another smuggling such devices to use this treaty as a cover for war.

[Tyyr]

As the greatest threats the CU has faced thus far seem to be the result of the former governments own lust for power we don't fully expect you to understand some of the more existential threats that exist in the galaxy.

The Federation's arrogance and condescension is duly noted.

As it is stated now it would take little more than one power saying it has caught another smuggling such devices to use this treaty as a cover for war.

As it is stated now the treaty binds no one to any course of action they do not wish to participate in. However to assuage the fear mongering of your politicians and lawyers we will amend the treaty with your proposed language.

Dorvan Non-Proliferation Treaty

1. This treaty exists to reduce the threat of the use of weapons of mass destruction by limiting their spread.

2. Weapons of Mass Destruction are defined as weapons that can destroy planets or stars in their entirety, who have the power to destroy all sapient life upon a planet, or can render subspace impassible. Weapons that will be covered in these treaty are, but are not limited to, directed radiation weapons such as tholaron radiation emitters, trilithium based weapons, subspace weapons, forced terraforming weapons (Genesis devices), biological weapons, and chemical weapons. These article may be amended to include new classes of weapons with the consent of all signatories.
a. Tri-Cobalt devices are excluded from this treaty.

3. In order to halt the spread of these weapons the signatories of this treaty agree to neither sell nor purchase any weapons of mass destruction or the technology to construct or research them to or from any other entity be it a nation state, organization, or individual be they a signatory of this treaty or not.

4. If any attempt is made or offer received to sell or purchase these weapons by or to a signatory the signatory shall publicly disclose the event as well as the parties involved immediately.

5. To enforce this treaty the signatories shall reserve the right to search any foreign ship be it trade, warship, or private, of another nation that crosses into its territory. They may use whatever means they deem appropriate to conduct the search. The force used to enact a search should be proportional. Signatories do not have the right to conduct searches or scans on vessels inside another nation's territory.

6. If the transfer of banned weapons or technology is discovered the signatories may elect to refer the violation to the larger treaty body as a whole for collective discussion or intervention but the treaty will in no way bind signatories to courses of action they do not endorse or to discussion with the full treaty body. The treaty will not impede the signatories rights as sovereign powers to protect their nations. Additionally nothing in this treaty binds any signatory to either implicitly or explicitly support a course of action taken by one power against another for accused violations of this treaty.

7. Signatories of this treaty may withdraw at any time with public notice of their intentions.

If there is no further discussion to be had we would like to finalize the treaty and forward it for signing by the various powers.

[Reliant121]

While the Federation Ambassador lacked the tact and delicacy that we would usually expect (so much the better!), I believe their point is two fold.

The first, they want limitations. There must be a specified limit as to how much force can be used in any given instance. While we are all for simply blasting them for crimes, the Federation and its countless worlds will need further assurance than simply a nations word.

Second, they have a significant point. This treaty limits their use and/or development when they could indeed prove useful against unspeakable foes. While we'd hardly use them against Romulans, why waste so much money and power on them, they could be ideal weapons against the honourless Borg, or the indefatigable and enigmatic "Species 8472".

[Lighthawk]

MESSAGE TO ALL LOCAL INTERSTELLAR POWERS, PRIORITY 5
FROM THE SPEAKER, VOICE OF THE CONFEDERACY, REPRESENTATIVE OF HYLLUS GENERAL INTERESTS
PEACEFUL RESPONSES FROM LOCAL POWERS DESIRED


The clans of the Hyllus Confederacy wish to announce our desire to no longer remain apart from the local interstellar community. Long enough have we remained isolated, until now we fear stagnation of our society, as well as recognize the potential for utter disaster in remaining alone. The threat of the Dominion, faced so recently by the major powers of the area, was one thwarted only by collaboration. Had such a militant power targeted us, we admit with reluctance but truthful understanding, that our race would have been reduced to slaves at best. Though it wounds the pride of many of our kind, we refuse to maintain the risk of domination by a greater power for the sake of our isolation and individually.

First and foremost, we wish to express our desire to avoid conflict with our neighbors. We desire no war, nor threats of posturing and intimidation. At present we have no intention of expansion, nor of allowing free access to our space. We will not leap unchecked into relations with our neighbors, but will not remain apart either. With the proper agreements, we will cease our zero tolerance policy to foreign ships within our space.

May good fortune never pass you by

[BigJKU316]

The United Federation of Planets welcomes the Hyllus Confederacy to the international community. While our interaction will be somewhat limited due to your location we stand ready to provide you any assistance you may neccessitate.

[Lighthawk]

The United Federation of Planets welcomes the Hyllus Confederacy to the international community. While our interaction will be somewhat limited due to your location we stand ready to provide you any assistance you may neccessitate.

MESSAGE TO THE UNITED FEDERATION OF PLANETS, PRIORITY 4
FROM THE SPEAKER, VOICE OF THE CONFEDERACY, REPRESENTATIVE OF HYLLUS GENERAL INTERESTS
OPENING NEGOTIATIONS DESIRED

Your offer of assistance is recorded gladly. We would wish for no ill will between our two peoples', nor a state of neutrality. We would hope to offer a pact of non-aggression as the basis of our relations.

[Reliant121]

As long as the Hyllus Confederacy does not interfere with the operations of the Klingon Empire, then we see no reason for hostility between us!

[Lighthawk]

As long as the Hyllus Confederacy does not interfere with the operations of the Klingon Empire, then we see no reason for hostility between us!

MESSAGE TO KLINGON EMPIRE, PRIORITY 4
FROM THE SWORD-BEARER, ARM OF THE CONFEDERACY, OVERSEER OF FLEET ACTIONS
HONORABLE RESPONSE DESIRED, BUT NOT DEMANDED

May we offer peace of mind to the honorable and powerful Klingon Empire, that we have no intentions of interfering in any way with the designs and policies of our mighty neighbors. There would be not but blood to gain from such a foolish and pointless endeavor. We seek only peace, and would hope to receive the same in return. An agreement of peace between us would be most desirable.

Honor shall ride within your weapons

[Reliant121]

-strokes beard-

Wise words. Wise indeed, for a race so young in interstellar diplomacy.

As for non-aggression, our alliance treaty with the Federation effectively disables our ability to hold non-aggression pacts for the fact that the Khitomer alliance stipulates we must be ready defend our allies against any foe, regardless of our allegiences to them.

However, if a non-aggression treaty between the Klingon and Federation powers, plus of course the Hyllus can be arranged...There is no reason that it cannot be done!

[Tyyr]

While the Federation Ambassador lacked the tact and delicacy that we would usually expect (so much the better!), I believe their point is two fold.

The first, they want limitations. There must be a specified limit as to how much force can be used in any given instance. While we are all for simply blasting them for crimes, the Federation and its countless worlds will need further assurance than simply a nations word.

This was a point of contention for us. The Cardassian Union strongly believes that treaties can only be built upon each nation's word. While pretty documents are all well and good there is no higher court to which we can take disputes between one another over a broken, "contract." If our word is not good enough then how are scribbles on paper that are only backed by our word any better.

The Cardassian Union made this proposal in good faith for both the benefit of the region as a whole and we will admit, for ourselves to a degree. To have such a conceptually simple treaty mired in technicalities has been deeply frustrating.

Second, they have a significant point. This treaty limits their use and/or development when they could indeed prove useful against unspeakable foes. While we'd hardly use them against Romulans, why waste so much money and power on them, they could be ideal weapons against the honourless Borg, or the indefatigable and enigmatic "Species 8472".

Again, this treaty in no way shape or form limits individual nation-states from developing or using these weapons if they see fit. This treaty ONLY limits the transfer of weapons or technology to other powers.

While we make no attempt to hide the fact that we would very much like to see the development of these weapons outlawed as well we have made no provision for such in this treaty.

[BigJKU316]

We can appreciate the views of the CU regarding this and feel we must explain the source of our caution.

Time and again the Federation has drawn treaties with powers such as the Romulans and made efforts to follow them to the letter. However as you say a treaty is only as good as the word of those who sign it so often we found the treaty being violated and were left with little recourse.

To that end we have to ensure that any treaty we get into is one we can live with not only if everyone follows it but also if the other power(s) choose to just ignore it. We will be particular about the language of any deal to ensure it protects our interest.

[Tyyr]

Well, your first mistake was trusting a Romulan. We can appreciate your caution but also try to understand the indignation of the Union. We have been making a concerted effort to rehabilitate our nation over the last two decades. To have the Federation throw the mistakes of the past in our faces like that was deeply insulting. We were attempting to reach an agreement that all parties regardless of politics could agree upon in order to halt the proliferation of weapons of dubious utility. To constantly have to defend the treaty as not being a cover for war was unexpected and unpleasant.

That said, we are willing to put this behind us immediately and proceed onward.

[Reliant121]

You speak with ire Cardassian.

Indeed, to ever trust a Romulan is to be a fool!