The Effectiveness Of The Bismarck + Other Nazi Superweapons

[Captain Seafort]

Not sure if the source is genuine, if so it seems she was engaged by two battleships during her last engagement.

KGV was ranging on Rodney's shell splashes for the important part of the engagement, and only got on target at 0910 - the time Bismarck was silenced. This suggests that said straddle/hit helped silence her, as by that time both directors and Anton and Bruno were u/s.

At 09:02 an 8-inch (200 mm) shell from Norfolk hit the main gun director, killing the gunnery officer,......... - same source as above

Sure, a heavy cruiser doesn't have the same artillery as a battleship but disregarding them out of hand when they obviously are able to dish out some damage......(and that is without counting destroyers hounding her with torpedoes)

Conceded, although in Bismarck's case Vian stayed out of the final action - unsurprisingly, as his crews were probably as knackered as Bismarck's after the night action.

without the weak stern section she wouldn't have been quite so a sitting duck as she was

Without that weak stern she'd have been able to make Brest. With it, and the damage thus suffered, she swung head to wind, straight into the teeth of the Home Fleet.

what would interest me is how lucky a hit this torpedo was.

Not particularly so. It didn't have to hit any specific bit of the stern to wreck the whole thing.

But still, one ship without air-cover against an armada,....it WAS only a matter of time.

The lack of air cover was pretty much irrelevant - even if the Home Fleet hadn't been there there's not much you can do with a ship that will only make for the wind's eye.

[Atekimogus]

The lack of air cover was pretty much irrelevant - even if the Home Fleet hadn't been there there's not much you can do with a ship that will only make for the wind's eye.

I wasn't necessarily refering to her damaged state, only that even if they didn't got her then they would have gotten her sometime later even if she was a brilliant design. A Tiger might surivive 5 Shermans but the sixth will get him and cleary Bismarck was nowhere near as brilliant a design.

On the same topic it would interest me how accurate and dependent on luck those engagement where as a rule. The fought over huge distances with relative primitve euqipment so how many shots would they usually need to hit the target?

[BigJKU316]

The lack of air cover was pretty much irrelevant - even if the Home Fleet hadn't been there there's not much you can do with a ship that will only make for the wind's eye.

I wasn't necessarily refering to her damaged state, only that even if they didn't got her then they would have gotten her sometime later even if she was a brilliant design. A Tiger might surivive 5 Shermans but the sixth will get him and cleary Bismarck was nowhere near as brilliant a design.

On the same topic it would interest me how accurate and dependent on luck those engagement where as a rule. The fought over huge distances with relative primitve euqipment so how many shots would they usually need to hit the target?

Thats really a question for a statistics geek...but the equipment was not nearly as primative as you might think. US battleships used a form of computer fire control (mechanical computer) and I believe the system was wind & roll corrected as well. It certainly was not a guided missile but they were able to hit what they were aiming at.

Luck would have played a fair degree in these as the first ship to hit was usually going to be at a huge advantage, especially if you hit something important, but some designs were just flat better than others.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Probably the same kind of computer (modified) the bombers used, methink. Those wind currents were a bitch.

And torpedoes. Sea Current will have an even bigger impact, probably. When I think about it, these so-called primitive computers must have been quite revolutionnary at the time

[Sonic Glitch]

Probably the same kind of computer (modified) the bombers used, methink. Those wind currents were a bitch.

And torpedoes. Sea Current will have an even bigger impact, probably. When I think about it, these so-called primitive computers must have been quite revolutionnary at the time

Those "so-called primitive computers:" Over the summer I visited and took a tour of the USS North Carolina, which carried the same fire-control technology as the Iowa-class battleships if i recall correctly. Previously, I've visited the USS New Jersey several times. Apparently when the Iowa class being modernized in the 80s (i think it was the 80s, it could've been another modernization period), it was debated whether or not to install modern computer-directed fire control. A competition (or simulation, whatever you want to call it) was held pitting the mechanical computers of the Iowa class against the modern computers that were the intended replacement. The WWII vintage equipment performed just as well as the modern equipment, or at least well enough that it was decided it wasn't worth the money to replace them.

[Tyyr]

The CEP of the main guns of an Iowa at 24 miles was about 300m. Mind you that's at maximum range. At shorter ranges the CEP was smaller and the ship's much more deadly. The Washington hit the Kirishima nine times at 18,500 yards (~10.5 miles) and the Washington was a South Carolina class, two battleship generations behind the Iowas. The Iowa herself straddled (dropped rounds on either side of) the Japanese destroyer Nowaki off Truk island at a range of 36,000 yards (~20 miles).

Battleships in WWII were not the same kind of ships lobbing rounds at each other off Jutland. With their fire control computers being fed radar ranging and positioning information they were quite accurate.

Now that being said that's American ships, I can't really speak for British or German. My knowledge of battleship fire control is mostly limited to US ships.

[Tyyr]

Those "so-called primitive computers:" Over the summer I visited and took a tour of the USS North Carolina, which carried the same fire-control technology as the Iowa-class battleships if i recall correctly. Previously, I've visited the USS New Jersey several times. Apparently when the Iowa class being modernized in the 80s (i think it was the 80s, it could've been another modernization period), it was debated whether or not to install modern computer-directed fire control. A competition (or simulation, whatever you want to call it) was held pitting the mechanical computers of the Iowa class against the modern computers that were the intended replacement. The WWII vintage equipment performed just as well as the modern equipment, or at least well enough that it was decided it wasn't worth the money to replace them.

That's mostly because ballistic flight is a relatively simple problem to solve. Given equal information a well put together mechanical computer will spit out a targeting solution every bit as good as a digital one given the hysteresis inherent in that kind of system.

[Captain Seafort]

Battleships in WWII were not the same kind of ships lobbing rounds at each other off Jutland. With their fire control computers being fed radar ranging and positioning information they were quite accurate.

Quite accurate indeed, but don't forget which ship holds the record for the longest-ranged confirmed hit.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Battleships in WWII were not the same kind of ships lobbing rounds at each other off Jutland. With their fire control computers being fed radar ranging and positioning information they were quite accurate.

Quite accurate indeed, but don't forget which ship holds the record for the longest-ranged confirmed hit.

USS Enterprise-E, striking a Borg Sphere in orbit?

[Captain Seafort]

USS Enterprise-E, striking a Borg Sphere in orbit?

No, it's considerably further than the typical Trek combat range.

[BigJKU316]

I am fairly positive its the Warspite. Forget who they were shooting at though.

A shame Halsey butchered the Battle at Leyte, I am fairly positive that the Iowa's there would have shattered that record firing on the Yamato from range.

[Captain Seafort]

I am fairly positive its the Warspite. Forget who they were shooting at though.

Giulio Cesare, in the action off Calabria in July 1940. It's actually a joint record, as Scharnhorst hit Glorious at about the same range off Norway.

A shame Halsey butchered the Battle at Leyte, I am fairly positive that the Iowa's there would have shattered that record firing on the Yamato from range.

Quite possibly, but it would depend on the local circumstances.

[BigJKU316]

Would have been night but they likely would have done what 7th Fleet did in the South and simply capped the exit to the straight and effectively crossed the enemy T. The ships are very accurate in firing on a bearing and less so on distance so shooting down the spine of Yamato would help as it gives a greater margin for error.

The radar should be able to do it, assuming the commander decide to open fire at that range which would have been the main question in my mind. He likely would have been quite safe at much closer range with a better chance for a hit. But your chance for punching through for a kill is greater the further away you are since you get more deck penetration.

Mostly its just a shame because it would have made for a clean sweep of the Japanese and a much cleaner battle. Though we would have been denied the stories of the tin-cans charging at Japanese heavy units which is a great story in its own right.

[Tyyr]

That reminds me. In that battle the West Virginia hit the Yamashiro at a range of 22,800 yards (13 miles) in the dead of night with her first salvo and hit her on five of six salvos. The Yamashiro handled this about as well as well as you'd expect a WWI battleship to handle 16" fire. It sank. The West Virginia had radar to help with aiming. American battleships were scary accurate.