Romulan Neutral Zone

[SolkaTruesilver]

Wait. And after this, I am the childish one for not keeping my temper?

No, I'm saying this quite calmly. Notice the lack of an exclamation mark.

Here's the thing. What you're suggesting, that even if it's an acknowledged free fire zone the only reason the UFP doesn't blow up any Romulan ship they find is that they're wusses, is so f***ing stupid it shouldn't require an explanation as to why its completely f***ing stupid. The fact that you think just because of a treaty you can blow up another nations major combatants is so f***ing stupid it shouldn't require an explanation as to why its completely f***ing stupid.

The fact that you can't see this makes you an idiot.

No. It simply means that I haven't considered all the possibility that the Federation isn't exploiting to keep some balance with the Romulan' schemes.

And writting in all-cap letter is considered shouting over the internet. And if you keep swearwords every sentence, then it is considered as you are angry and insulting, so it's logical to assume you are losing your temper. I rarely see people cussing every other second without strong emotions involved. Just try to limit your cusses and insults, and we could have a very good argument.

So if I try to understand through your verbal abuse, you might be right in your statement. I still think the Federation should try to, let's say, do their own "bully show" when they have the opportunity. You are right, the fact that it's a free killzone doesn't mean that shooting actually takes place. But it does mean that it COULD take place. The Romulans always seems eager to ambush federation starships and bully them, making them lose face. The Federation could actually do the same from time to time, in order to show to the Romulans that they aren't always on the receiving end of that stick.

[Tyyr]

And writting in all-cap letter is considered shouting over the internet.

Also emphasis. Either interpretation works given that you are not getting the point. Neither implies I am losing my temper.

And if you keep swearwords every sentence, then it is considered as you are angry and insulting, so it's logical to assume you are losing your temper. I rarely see people cussing every other second without strong emotions involved. Just try to limit your cusses and insults, and we could have a very good argument.

You've obviously never worked with roughnecks. And if you'll look at other debates I usually don't cuss every other word. However we're also not discussing completely idiotic things either. I feel no need to keep things perfectly civil in face of rampant stupidity.

So if I try to understand through your verbal abuse, you might be right in your statement.

Funny, I haven't changed my point since the first time I said it.

I still think the Federation should try to, let's say, do their own "bully show" when they have the opportunity. You are right, the fact that it's a free killzone doesn't mean that shooting actually takes place. But it does mean that it COULD take place. The Romulans always seems eager to ambush federation starships and bully them, making them lose face. The Federation could actually do the same from time to time, in order to show to the Romulans that they aren't always on the receiving end of that stick.

Which is your opinion. Your opinion in this case flies directly in the face of how the TNG Federation conducts itself. Hell, it'd still be extreme in the TOS Federation. The Federation doesn't do those kind of things because it can lead to a war. They can't control what the Romulans do but they can control what they do.

[Mark]

Try it this way.

A guy gets in your face and starts yelling. A crowd of witnesses gathers around. He threatens you, spittle flying in your face, the whole nine yards. You so want to knock him on his ass and curbstomp him.

But is the charge of assault you'll end up in jail over worth it? Or dodging this idiots four brothers who are trying to jump you? Or getting your friends involved to fight for you?

Is all of that worth one idiot posturing? Thats kind of what Tyyr is trying to say.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Try it this way.

A guy gets in your face and starts yelling. A crowd of witnesses gathers around. He threatens you, spittle flying in your face, the whole nine yards. You so want to knock him on his ass and curbstomp him.

But is the charge of assault you'll end up in jail over worth it? Or dodging this idiots four brothers who are trying to jump you? Or getting your friends involved to fight for you?

Is all of that worth one idiot posturing? Thats kind of what Tyyr is trying to say.

Might be. The Romulans were the Federation's greatest rivals. If the Federation would have stood up, they might not have had the reputation of being such wusses Quadrant-wide. It took the Dominion War to prove that the Fed actually had Klingon-sized cojones.

I ain't saying that the Fed should have started being jerkasses, but they should have tried to be more proactive against losing face to the Romulans.

[Reliant121]

The romulans have never shown themselves to be the greatest rivals of the federation, I think that falls to the Klingons regardless of any alliance pacts. The Romulans were perceived as a threat because nothing was known about them, and the federation simply didn't want to provoke them due to that uncertainty. The Romulans know damn well that Starfleet could paste them should they wish to so they don't rattle things too much. It's almost like mutual understanding of one doesn't want to risk a war they don't know they can win, and the other doesn't want to risk a war they know they can't win.

[SolkaTruesilver]

The romulans have never shown themselves to be the greatest rivals of the federation, I think that falls to the Klingons regardless of any alliance pacts. The Romulans were perceived as a threat because nothing was known about them, and the federation simply didn't want to provoke them due to that uncertainty. The Romulans know damn well that Starfleet could paste them should they wish to so they don't rattle things too much. It's almost like mutual understanding of one doesn't want to risk a war they don't know they can win, and the other doesn't want to risk a war they know they can't win.

Except, you know, trying to break the Federation/Klingon Alliance.

Or, you know, conquer Vulcan.

[Reliant121]

Sarcasm doth burn me(!).

Conquering Vulcan I cant remember but my mind might be tricking me. But breaking the alliance would have been an entirely political thing. Political machinations are the Romulan speciality, military machinations are not.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Sarcasm doth burn me(!).

Conquering Vulcan I cant remember but my mind might be tricking me. But breaking the alliance would have been an entirely political thing. Political machinations are the Romulan speciality, military machinations are not.

Conquering Vulcan almost happened in "Unification", with 30,000 soldiers (hehe..).

I was mostly referring to the military aid they provided to the Duras during the civil war.

[Reliant121]

We have no idea what form of aid it was. It was more destabilizing the Klingon government than undermining the alliance IMO.

[Captain Seafort]

Conquering Vulcan almost happened in "Unification", with 30,000 soldiers (hehe..).

They intended to do it with 2,000. I.E conquer an entire planet with a smaller force than the one that was defeated in a week in Dublin in 1916.

I was mostly referring to the military aid they provided to the Duras during the civil war.

They also legged it when their latest convoy was discovered by Starfleet.

[Mark]

Try it this way.

A guy gets in your face and starts yelling. A crowd of witnesses gathers around. He threatens you, spittle flying in your face, the whole nine yards. You so want to knock him on his ass and curbstomp him.

But is the charge of assault you'll end up in jail over worth it? Or dodging this idiots four brothers who are trying to jump you? Or getting your friends involved to fight for you?

Is all of that worth one idiot posturing? Thats kind of what Tyyr is trying to say.

Might be. The Romulans were the Federation's greatest rivals. If the Federation would have stood up, they might not have had the reputation of being such wusses Quadrant-wide. It took the Dominion War to prove that the Fed actually had Klingon-sized cojones.


I ain't saying that the Fed should have started being jerkasses, but they should have tried to be more proactive against losing face to the Romulans.

Greatest rivals? I think your mistaken there chief. In TOS, Balance of Terror the Romulans tested Starfleet to see if they could win an invasion. Since then, they've avoided open conflict. Do you really think that if the Romulan Star Empire thought they could realistically win a war with the Federation, that they WOULDN'T have launched an attack?

Yes, they tried to invade Vulcan. They tried to land occupation troops. But at the end, when the were discovered and were about to be caught, they destroyed their own troops. Why did they do that? Because without the element of surprise they couldn't win. Their only hope was to quickly occupy Vulcan and dig in deep enough that they couldn't be evicted.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Conquering Vulcan almost happened in "Unification", with 30,000 soldiers (hehe..).

They intended to do it with 2,000. I.E conquer an entire planet with a smaller force than the one that was defeated in a week in Dublin in 1916.

Oh my. My memory is bad about this. But I think it's because I really found the initial number to be so ludicrous, I increased the scale a little..

....

2000 troopers to occupy the planet without space superiority. Yhea. Like that's gonna work.

[Captain Seafort]

Yes, they tried to invade Vulcan. They tried to land occupation troops. But at the end, when the were discovered and were about to be caught, they destroyed their own troops. Why did they do that? Because without the element of surprise they couldn't win. Their only hope was to quickly occupy Vulcan and dig in deep enough that they couldn't be evicted.

The entire invasion of Vulcan is probably the low point of Star Trek and ground combat. Two thousand troops to hold a planet? The only way that could have worked would have been if they'd seized key government buildings, dug in, and expected the Federation to give them the planet rather than risk urban combat. Either the Romulans are incredibly stupid or the Federation has no concept of ground warfare whatsoever.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Yes, they tried to invade Vulcan. They tried to land occupation troops. But at the end, when the were discovered and were about to be caught, they destroyed their own troops. Why did they do that? Because without the element of surprise they couldn't win. Their only hope was to quickly occupy Vulcan and dig in deep enough that they couldn't be evicted.

The entire invasion of Vulcan is probably the low point of Star Trek and ground combat. Two thousand troops to hold a planet? The only way that could have worked would have been if they'd seized key government buildings, dug in, and expected the Federation to give them the planet rather than risk urban combat. Either the Romulans are incredibly stupid or the Federation has no concept of ground warfare whatsoever.

Also.. one additional thing. There was a Romulan Warbird following that invasion force during all that time?

Hasn't it been detected?

[Deepcrush]

The transports were just crossing the border so its likely the D'D was using them as a hat.