Tech level of the Vulcans/Romulans

[Captain Picard's Hair]

In Enterprise, the Vulcans are the most advanced ally, and the Romulans the most advanced adversary. However, given what else we know about these races, shouldn't they be even more advanced than they were?

It is said that the pace of advancement in Trek seems very slow; however consider that in the Trek universe we got from where we are now to Voyager-level tech in less than 400 years, and not too far in Voyager's future time travel technology was advanced, and there were weapons that could destroy Borg cubes in a single shot (unfortunate, yes, but canon). The Romulans split from the Vulcans over one thousand years ago! This implies that they were decades ahead of where we are now, over a thousand years ago, since they had tech sufficient for manned interstellar travel. Between than and the time of Enterprise, they had longer than it took us to go from the first cell phone (which bears little resemblance to modern cellies) to Transphasic torpedoes. So, why did the Vulcans and Romulans advance so little?

The Romulans have something of an excuse that their development was slowed by the voyage to Vulcan to Romulus; the proto-Romulans only being able to continue to progress once they reached Romulus. They still had many hundreds of years, at least, so it's not a strong excuse. The Vulcans?

[Captain Picard's Hair]

This particular error, for one, did not originate in Enterprise since the producers were just extrapolating backwards from later tech levels. Its origin can be traced to "Balance of Terror," I guess, the episode that established that Romulans are an offshoot of Vulcans, which implies that the split had to have happened a long time ago for the Romulans to have developed their own empire and for Spock not to be certain of the Romulan heritage. How unfortunate to muddy up such a great episode. I put it here because this is the earliest (in universe) Trek series and this subject originates very early in the Trek universe.

[Mikey]

You make an excellent point. CPH. I can't really explain why thos two races aren't further along than they were. All I can say is that Vulcan is often quite hidebound, and tied up in their own dogma and ritual; while the RSE seems to have huge disparities in their techical acheivement from field to particular field.

For example: in the seminal ep, "Balance of Terror," they have ships fitted with a cloaking device. I will repeat that loudly. A CLOAKING DEVICE! We've become jaded, but this is really an amazingly, mind-blowingly, super-badass technological acheivement. However, at the same time their ships are powered by "simple impulse power," presumably from the context a reactor similar to the ones which power a Fed ship's sublight engines. The gap between these two areas - cloaking/EM manipulation vs. power generation - is HUGE. Therefore, we can say that individual Romulan advancements may be big, but their AVERAGE technological level shouldn't be expected to be too far ahead of their contemporaries..

[mlsnoopy]

For Vulcans the answer is simple. It's logic, if you think to logical you can't think outside the box.

[RK_Striker_JK_5]

Sovaal comments on that in 'The Forge'. It was one of the reasons why the Vulcans were mistrustful of humans in ENT, that we recovered so quickly and Vulcan did not.

[Teaos]

Heh I was just about to make a thread on something like this.

My theory about this is more of an observance of how species interact.

Competition breads excellence. Before humans got to space there seemed to be some sort of stagnation in the local powers.

Vulcans had become very complacent with their position. They sat and observed but never really had the drive to improve. They knew from their past that with power came the desire to use it and they may face the destruction they once did.

The Klingons have never really been very organized. Their clans/families fight with them selves for personal honor. They had dealings with other species but they never seemed to have large combined efforts that may push them to excel.

The Romulans were advanced enough to not warry about other species and isolationist enough to not be pushed to excel.

I have thought for a long time the thing that makes humans such a powerful force is their desire to improve themselves. Their attitude of "we'll do it because we can/because it was there/because it was hard" pushes them in a way other species don't.

They are the catalyst that drives others to keep up with them.

[Mikey]

While I haven't heard that particular motivation applied to technical advancement, that does seem to be the subconscious idea behind the success of humanity in most of 'Trek.

[Captain Seafort]

I disagree with the fundamental premise that there's been rapid technological progress in the Trek universe as a whole. While it's true that humanity has adanced at a tremendous rate, there doesn't seem to have been significant development once they caught up with the galactic standard.

Consider the progression from Enterprise through to late TNG - after 200 years the same basic technology is still in use, albeit refined and improved. The NX-01's "3 km crater in an asteroid" photonic torpedoes aren't much behind the high kt/low Mt PTs of the E-D, her 500 GW/5 TW phase cannon are roughly equal to the E-D's TW-range output, and even her warp drive can get her from Earth to Klingon space in a few days.

Given this evidence, I think it's more likely that Earth recieved more help from neighbouring species than was suggested by Enterprise, and once parity was achieved progress slowed to the galactic-standard snail's pace. The leap in firepower and protection demonstrated by Admiral Janeway's refit can be explained in this context either by specialised anti-Borg weaponry, or technology acquired by Voyager herself during her original 23 year journey.

[Teaos]

Sure the same tech is in use but it is hugely more effective. Thats like saying the 40 inch plasma TV and the crappy black and white 5 inch box that was around 60 years ago are the same thing.

The Romulans had intersteller space travel two thousand years ago. When we see them in TOS they are only slightly better. Slightly faster, probably more powerful weapons ect. Hardly 2000 years of advancement there.

Even the increase of tech between early TNG and late DS9 is a far bigger jump than those powers seemed to manage in decades before humanity stepped up to the plate.

[Captain Seafort]

The Romulans had intersteller space travel two thousand years ago. When we see them in TOS they are only slightly better. Slightly faster, probably more powerful weapons ect. Hardly 2000 years of advancement there.

By what standard? In the last century and a half we've gone from taking months to get around the world to hours. Our most powerful weapons have gone from cannonballs to the equivalent of tens of millions of tons of TNT. Before that, travel speeds and firepower had barely changed for centuries, and before the gunpowder revolution they hadn't changed for millennia.

Even the increase of tech between early TNG and late DS9 is a far bigger jump than those powers seemed to manage in decades before humanity stepped up to the plate.

What tech increase? The only ones I'm aware of are the development of the Quantum Torpedo (which doesn't seem much more powerful than the bog-standard version), and the steady increase in the number of decimal places needed to record maximum warp. The effect of these changes has been extremely limited - the local political neighbourhood has remained the same despite the faster ships, and warships from early TNG still form the backbone of the major powers' fleets.

[Teaos]

By what standard? In the last century and a half we've gone from taking months to get around the world to hours.

You said that between TOS and VOY there had been little tech increase. Just bettering what had been already made. The same goes for us now. TV's are the same but better. Aeroplanes are the same but better. Guns are the same but better. Sure there has been the occasional new invention now but there has been in trek to.

The only ones I'm aware of are the development of the Quantum Torpedo (which doesn't seem much more powerful than the bog-standard version), and the steady increase in the number of decimal places needed to record maximum warp.

That is a tech increase. Top speeds are doubled and tripled in a few decades. If you dont count that as a massive increase you must class a Model T and a F1 car as the same thing.

New inventions don't happen that often anytime. Only previous technology getting better and having off shoots.

[Mikey]

You said that between TOS and VOY there had been little tech increase. Just bettering what had been already made. The same goes for us now. TV's are the same but better. Aeroplanes are the same but better. Guns are the same but better. Sure there has been the occasional new invention now but there has been in trek to.

That's very true, but the modern RL increases you are describing as comparable occured in a much shorter period of time. Improvements may be large or small, but they are just that - improvements, not innovations. I think it's very possible, esp. considering what we've seen, that technology in the 'Trek universe is approaching - maybe from a far distance, but still approaching - a terminal velocity.

[Captain Seafort]

You said that between TOS and VOY there had been little tech increase.

There hasn't - compare the ENT figures I pointed out to the TNG figures. There's very little difference.

Just bettering what had been already made. The same goes for us now. TV's are the same but better. Aeroplanes are the same but better. Guns are the same but better. Sure there has been the occasional new invention now but there has been in trek to.

Yes, they've been getting better. At a far slower rate than technology is currently.

That is a tech increase. Top speeds are doubled and tripled in a few decades.

No they haven't. Take the E-D, launched 2363, maximum speed warp 9.6, sustainable long term cruise speed of about 2700 c over 7000 ly. Then take Voyager, launched 2370, "stateable cruise velocity" warp 9.975, sustainable long-term cruise speed of about 1000 c over 70,000 ly. If anything they've got slower.

[Teaos]

Galaxy

Normal Cruise : 6
Maximum Cruise : 9.2
Maximum Rated : 9.63 for 12 hours.

Sovereign

Normal Cruise : 8
Maximum Cruise : 9.9
Maximum Rated : 9.99 for 36 hours.

That is a more fare compasion since they are the same kind of starship where as Voyager was a small scout.

[Captain Seafort]

Those are DITL numbers - they're an interesting extrapolation from existing speeds in terms of warp factors, but they're non-canon and don't have actual speeds attached.

In any event Voyager, being a scout, should be faster than a battleship like the E-D, not slower.

An alternative method would be to compare maximum speeds:

A Romulan Warbird has a maximum speed of about 4400 c ("The Enemy").
A GCS is faster than a Warbird ("Tin Man")
Voyager has a top speed of about 3000 c ("Scorpion Pt 2").

Therefore a GCS it at least half as fast again as Voyager, despite having a top speed of 9.6 compared to Voyager's 9.975.